Dr Zoe Hewitt is a stem cell expert wearing two professional hats through her role as project manager for one of the UK Regenerative Medicine Platform Hubs, and CEO and founder of the consultancy-Regenerative Cell Therapy Consulting (RegenCTC) Limited. Zoe jumped straight out of her PhD into setting up facilities for the growth of stem cells that could potentially be used for regenerative medicine.
Read the blog:
tesselledevelopment.com/research-lives-and-cultures/zoe-hewitt
Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking
Dr Zoe Hewitt is a stem cell expert wearing two professional hats through her role as project manager for one of the UK Regenerative Medicine Platform Hubs, and CEO and founder of the consultancy-Regenerative Cell Therapy Consulting (RegenCTC) Limited. Zoe jumped straight out of her PhD into setting up facilities for the growth of stem cells that could potentially be used for regenerative medicine.
Read the blog:
tesselledevelopment.com/research-lives-and-cultures/zoe-hewitt
Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking
Warning- getting a perfect transcript is hard. This transcript may have mistakes. Be kind to us by accepting these potential errors. I hope that the transcript is helpful to some of you! Apologies in advances for any mistakes in the transcript.
Interviewer: All right. Let's get started.
[music]
Good morning, dear listeners. This morning, I have the pleasure to have with me, Dr. Zoe Hewitt from the University of Sheffield. I was also at the University of Sheffield for many years, but actually, I don't think that I've met Zoe when I worked there. Zoe for a very long time worked for the Center for Stem Cell Biology. I was also part of the Center for Stem Cell Biology. Somehow I'm surprised that I did not actually cross her during all these years. Maybe we met in a coffee shop or something, but we actually didn't know each other. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Zoe works for a research network that brings together people who work on stem cells and engineering cells. This network is made of lots of researchers from across-- I think it's four different institutions across the UK. It's really a pleasure to have you because you have been a researcher, a scientist, and now you're working a different capacity. It's going to be really interesting to hear about your path because we have a lot of PhD students and postdoctoral researchers who find it really, really challenging to project themselves into the future and identifying what's their next step. Hearing your story is going to be really, really useful for many of our listeners. Welcome on the show, Zoe.
Zoe Hewitt: Thank you very much for having me.
Interviewer: Let's get started. Could you tell us, how did your career in research start?
Zoe: I can start by saying that I can understand a lot of the students not being able to project themselves in the future because I was no different than them. I guess my path started when I was early for a field trip we were going. I was at the university of Derby doing my undergraduate degree, general biology degree. We were off to a sewage farm of all places and I was early. I nipped into the student union and saw a copy of a science magazine in 1998 when human embryonic stem cells were first published. There was an article in there about these marvelous little cells, how they were going to revolutionize the world.
I was absolutely captivated. I spent the final years of my undergrad teaching my lecturers about them and saying how they were going to change the world. I came across an acetate of how we were going to inject them into brains of Parkinson's disease patients. 20 years later, that's exactly what people are starting to do. I spent my final year projects talking about these cells. I did a placement in Birmingham and again, my train was delayed and I went into the shop, WHSmith, I think it was. There was a PhD advertised in the back that was around eliminating undifferentiated human embryonic stem cells from cell therapies. I was like, "That's what I want to do."
I went and spoke to my personal tutor at the time and said, "I really want to do this PhD, but it's at The Roslin Institute and I'm just a little girl from outside a small village in the middle of nowhere in England as if I can go to the Roslin Institute." He said to me, "You're as capable as anyone else, Zoe. You will regret it for the rest of your life if you don't apply." I applied and I checked into the hotel in Roslin to go for the interview. This lady said to me, "You're ever so lucky, they only take the best in the world here." At which point I said to my mom, "Mom, you best take my photograph by this sign that says The Roslin Institute, because I'm not coming back here."
I did. I've still got that photograph in my suite next to the sign. I went for the interview and I just took it as, let's just enjoy being here in this brilliant place. Dolly, the sheep was only three years old then. I just talked and talked, and talked in my interview, and the PhD supervisor said to me, "Have you got any questions?" I said, "I thought I was going to come here and not have anything to say." He said, "That certainly didn't happen." At which point, again, I checked myself. I did my PhD at the Roslin Institute. Happy days on eliminating undifferentiated human embryonic cells. Then I was supposed to go to Australia to do a postdoc position.
I'd met somebody when I was at one of the conferences and I was really keen to go there. That really got me through the end of my PhD because I had to get a job while I was writing up, because at Roslin, they didn't fund you to keep writing at that time. I was working at Scottish Water of all places doing office management. Actually, I was helping them implement ISO 9001 accreditation in the office, and writing up at the same time. Then when I submitted, the funding fell through in Australia, so I wasn't able to go. Then I was in a position where I needed to find a job. I actually applied for a job with Peter Andrews and was unsuccessful in getting a postdoc position. This is in 2005, 2006.
Interviewer: So far, Lisa knows Peter was one of the big cheese in stem cell research. He was at Sheffield already at the time, was he?
Zoe: Yes, he'd been there. The Center for Stem Cell Biology at that time was the place to go in the UK. It was where people were going to get trained on human embryonic stem cells. It was a big deal.
Interviewer: It's funny, Zoe, because I worked there, I think, in 2005, 2006 or something like that. At the time, we were trying basically to develop courses for people from all over the world to come and learn how to develop basically cell lines from human embryos and trying to get people to come and learn the basic techniques of doing it. You must have been coming around that time then.
Zoe: Actually, yes. Although I didn't get the job with Peter Andrews, he said to me, "You should come and speak to Harry Moore, because actually with your ISO 9001 policy management skills, I think you're exactly what they need." I came back down again and had an interview with Harry. They had just built a clean room facility in Sheffield. Harry said to me, "We've built a clean room, make it work." I went, "You've built what?" [laughs
I arrived in Sheffield in July, 2006. I knocked on the door and Christine Piggott, the lab manager, opened the door and I said, "Hi, I'm Zoe. I'm here to start my new job." She went, "Oh no, not another one." Because the lab was just exploding at that time. The group was 30, 35 people big. Unbeknownst to me, a lot of them were new, but I thought everyone had been there forever. My first week was one of those courses. I went down to the conference room on the ground floor at Sheffield.
I was introduced to the team at Sheffield and all of the delegates as the Matrigel expert, because that's how we'd grown ourselves feeder-free up in Edinburgh, and in Sheffield they were growing them on feeders. At that point, I hadn't even stepped in the lab. I didn't know where anything was and I taught. My first day on the job I was teaching at Sheffield University feeder-free cell culture. I was like, "I don't know where anything is." That was the start. I came down to Sheffield on a six-month contract. 15 years later, I'm still here.
Interviewer: That's incredible. What's really fascinating about what you just told us is that just the starting point of your research life in the field of stem cell came from a personal deep interest, a place of curiosity. Actually, it reminds me, I interviewed Peter Andrew many years ago. That's one of the thing that he always said is, "You need to have curiosity. You may be working on lots of different topics, but actually the sense of curiosity is really what anchors, what drives you."
Starting like that. Also, the second thing you said about sometime being thrown to the deep end. Your first day you were teaching and it's like no time for induction, no time to figure out, "What on earth am I meant to be doing in this job." I guess it can be the best way because you don't have the luxury of worrying about things and just being thrown in, and just getting on with it. It's fascinating.
Zoe: I'll be honest, what sold the job for me in the end was Harry offered to get me an an iPod to use in the clean room because it's quite lonely and there was this kind of hum in the room. He said, "It's all right, we'll get you an iPod." I was like, "Awesome. I'm down."
[laughter]
Interviewer: That's really funny. That's brilliant. Could you describe the role that you have now, because-- You were responsible for the clean room, and a lot of stuff that is very much laboratory-based, but now you're working in a very different role where you're not in the lab anymore.
Zoe: This is all related really. I would say I've never had a classic academic research career. I've never really had a proper research career, if I'm honest. I came down here and, "Here's a clean room, make it work." I became quality manager, facility manager, team leader. Yes, I was designing experiments. There was a fantastic team of technicians who carried those out for me, and I was overseen. I went into middle management almost immediately, and so I didn't have this postdoc after postdoc, even though I was on short-term funding.
Because I had all of this responsibility for the clean room and I was the designated individual on the human tissue authority license, I developed the quality management system in the clean room that enabled us to make the master cell bank for the cell line that ultimately went into clinical trial. When the UK Regenerative Medicine Platform call was released, I was working on that grant as their quality advisor for the quality systems, because it's around-- The UKRMP is a network across the UK designed to remove bottlenecks to translate redundant medicine therapies from bench to clinic.
Our hub in particular is focused around pluripotent stem cells, which is obviously-- actually that's the reason I do it. You've just mentioned my curiosity. I'm a project manager now, but I only project manage this project because I love the science, because it's a way I can stay with the science. I'm not sure I could be a project manager in a car manufacturing facility, for example. Same skills, and I probably could do it, but I don't have the drive and therefore I probably wouldn't. My role now is to manage the PIs, to support the executive team and the director.
To deliver on the deliverables and milestones that we have set to work with the other two UKRMP hubs to expand and I guess bring in more impact and value for money across the network rather than working as little silos. We've developed, we've run workshops, we've run conferences, we've done training. We're trying to work with external partners to broaden the network's reach internationally, we've also done things with industry and with societies like the British Pharmacological Society. We work together just to to help people developing cell therapies particularly with a focus on pluripotent stem cells.
Sandrine: It's interesting, because in a way not entering a classical postdoc, in a way has been a way for you to stay involved on the forefront of research probably longer than some postdoc will have, because you were able to develop your project management skill and still work in the lab. I don't know the impact that the role that you had, you probably had less opportunity to publish. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about that. Is this the case?
Zoe: Absolutely. It's taken me until quite recently to see the positive side of my career development. When I came here to Sheffield as a fresh face, newly qualified postdoc. I didn't have a desire to become a project manager, I didn't have a desire to do quality management or operation management. I was a scientist, that's what I wanted to do. My driver was always I wanted to treat people. That's what I'd captivated my imagination back as an undergrad student. These cells had the potential to cure so many different diseases and I wanted to help people do that.
I guess in a way, I was becoming almost a process scientist, so not a blue sky fundamental scientist who were solving novel questions, but taking somebody's idea and making it better, making it more robust, making it more applicable for clinical application. That's what I was good at, I was very methodical. I guess that goes back to my PhD in that I had had a technique within my PhD that wasn't working, and it wasn't working for about three years. My supervisor actually once said to me, "Just write it up as a failed assay, you're too emotionally attached to it." I was like, no.
I broke it down and I got it to work. That could be just sheer grit and determination. People could call it stubbornness, I don't know, but I did get it to work and it was by taking it back and going, let's control very stringently all these things. I had a mindset for writing SOPs and developing this very methodical way of working, but I never intended not to be a scientist. In fact, when my daughter now asks me what I do, it's like, I'm a scientist. That's why I'm good, if I may say so myself, that's why I'm good at being a project manager, because I understand the science, I care about the science.
I have the ability to think about the science as well as the project, and so I can go, actually you over there, I need to speak to you over there, and let's build this new relationship. I can do that as opposed to just being a project manager, which is why I don't think I'd be as good a project manager in an area that I'm not interested in because it doesn't have the same appeal. In some ways being a project manager is like being a babysitter of grownups. You're just getting them to do the things that they know they need to do. They just need gentle reminders.
Sandrine: Can I ask you, you said it took you a long time to see the positive. I asked earlier, the issue about publication, seeing the positive in the role that you've been playing, was it about because some of these opportunities to publish that don't really exist in the context of what you were doing and we're formatted to see your value through publication and in a way, articulating your value through different ways of impacting the research environment. It's not necessarily noticed or--?
Zoe: Yes, exactly that. I think this is working in academia, especially research-led academia, you are conditioned to believe that if you don't progress along a normal academic route, that you've failed at being a scientist because you haven't progressed to professor, let's say. Also, the institutions don't-- Sheffield, for example, hasn't known how to handle my skill set because it doesn't fit into that career path. I've always felt a square peg in a round hole because I have this very unique skill set that's highly sought after, I now understand, but I wasn't lecturer, I wasn't a postdoc publishing lots of data.
Because although the work that I do, this process optimization, is absolutely fundamental towards getting these cell therapies into the clinic, you don't get nature paper for ironing out those creases, and so because you don't have the publications on your CV, you're overlooked for things like a PI's post. I know these career doors were closing for me, but as a new PhD, a new qualified postdoc, I had never appreciated that I was closing doors through the choices that I was having because I didn't have a strong mentor.
I didn't have anyone saying to me, "Zoe, have you thought about the fact that you're doing this?" I guess that that would be one of my tips really is that make sure you do have a network of mentors that you can talk to about your career choices. I felt like because I was good at something, I was being funneled down this path. I am good at this, and I have made an impact. The problem is that impact is not necessarily recognized by an academic institution.
If I'd gone into industry, it probably would've done, but I was always led to believe that industry was the dark side of science and that you probably shouldn't go down there. It's only recently that I've thought actually, no, that's a misgiving truth, and actually I would like to tell people about all these different opportunities that there are for people who've got PhD. I didn't have a lot of guidance.
Sandrine: I can completely relate to it because, again, my own career in a academic institution where basically both of us had role that didn't necessarily exist before, and in a way the lack of career progression often in this context is because these positions are not really seen as core to the mission of the institution they exist, but they come and they go, so there isn't really a structure for progression.
Knowing who may be the mentor is the question, because very much like me, I never had a sense that somebody could be my mentor, because there wasn't anybody that understood what I was doing. I completely understand the situation. What do you think made you realize your own power in the sense of I've got all these skills, I make things happen, I bring value, in a way the institution may not promote you but you have an inner sense of, I know what I have? You may still be frustrated if the university doesn't acknowledge it, but at the same time you have a sense of your own value.
Zoe: I guess it was really recent because I think because I didn't have the network of mentors, I have massive imposter syndrome that has developed over time, where I-- Because you're not told that you're valued. Actually, people refer to you as a post office hired help or whatever. You become, "This is just all I can do." Even me getting the project manager's role, it wasn't planned again. I went off and had my daughter. I went off on maternity leave.
At that point, I was named on the research grant. When I came back after six months, I'd still got a, perhaps more rounded understanding of what the project was and where it was going, and what had been done despite having been away. Again, my supervisor just went, "I don't know why you don't apply for the project manager's job," because the project manager had left while I was on maternity leave and they were struggling to fill the post. I just went, "Fine. I will then." They gave it to me.
Sandrine: They didn't give it to you, Zoe.
Zoe: No, I applied. I remember having to go down to Cambridge and it was an incredibly hot day. There was all these senior professors. Talking about leaders in the field. There was Austin Smith, there was Dave Williams, there was Peter Andrews, there was Harry Moore, Lynn Stacey, all senior profs in stem cell science in this way. I think Jenny Nichols was there as well, and as a female on the interview panel. I can remember them asking me, "Why do you want this job?"
Me actually answering that question with, "I'm not sure I do anymore because I'm not sure that I've got the skill set for this." Then when they gave me the feedback after interview, they said, "We would really like you to do this role, but we appreciate you don't have actual project management experience or a qualification. We think you should do one of those things while you're doing the job." I was like, "Okay." I got this role and then I had to teach myself how to do it. I've forgotten what you asked me is a question. I'm sorry.
Sandrine: That's okay. What's interesting is that sometime I've told too many women who will not apply for position because they have a sense of they don't necessarily have all the skills to be able to apply. What's really fascinating about your story is that in a way, the panel acknowledged that you didn't have all of the skills but that was fine, and that they were actually going to give you opportunities to build the extra bit that probably you didn't have.
In a way it's almost like when people feel a bit stuck in applying for position because they feel that I don't have everything that they want, that actually your panel may see the potential of elements that you have and may see the gap, and may still give you an opportunity and say, "You haven't got everything, but we will help you get this other part that you need." I will say it's a positive view of actually how review panel may actually perceive what you bring in a much more open way than maybe when you go to an interview and you feel they're just going to not want me because I haven't got everything that they want.
Zoe: That is true. I guess the other thing that was in my favor is that I obviously knew everybody on the panel because I had worked for them in the past. That obviously stood me in good stead. I'm not sure I would have been quite so successful had I applied for a role where people didn't know me personally.
Sandrine: Because there was probably already a sense of trust that had been built and a sense of what you could do because of running the clean room facilities. Can I ask you, when you're thinking about the way that you've navigated your career or project, could you give us an example of some of the hurdles that you've had?
Zoe: I've been trying to think about this. I don't really know what the hurdles have been in the-- I guess the hurdles have been things like lack of direction. I had an idea in my head of what I wanted to do quite early on, but I had no understanding of how to get there, and I didn't seek out help, which I should have done. I didn't seek out any training about career development. I just threw myself into the job.
All of the jobs that I've had, or all of the career posts I've had, I've had to self-teach everything. I had to teach myself how to do quality management. I had to teach himself what GMP even meant. I didn't even know what it meant when I started. It was at a time when the EU legislation was coming in and there was a lot of confusion. I've always had jobs where I've had to bury myself in order to understand what I was trying to achieve, and then forge ahead. I didn't have the head space to think about me. I think that was a mistake I made, I think, rather than a hurdle.
I think being a young woman in man's world, the first post when I took on the project manager's job, that was pretty challenging because I was significantly junior to everybody that I was trying to project-manage, being told that they didn't have to tell me anything because they reported to the MRC. I was like, "This is not going to work, is it? I guess the way I've overcome most hurdles is to just treat people with respect, treat people the way I would like to be treated myself, because every scientist at the end of the day is a human being. Irrespective of how qualified they are, how eminent they are, they're still a human being.
If you can treat people the way you want to be treated, and have a conversation with them, if there's something that is being done that you don't really like, and you can resolve that through a conversation, that is how I've approached everything. That seed came from a postdoc when I was doing my PhD. I can remember, I went to a conference and Alan Trounson was there. He was a big name in embryonic stem cells at the time. Still is. I really wanted to go and talk to him. He's an Australian, I wanted to go and work with somebody that he worked with. He was there in the post hall. I was, like, "I so want to go and talk to him," but I didn't, I'm too scared.
A postdoc who was with me was like, "He's just a person. If you don't go and speak to him, I'm going to go and introduce you, then you'll have to speak to him." I was like, "No, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that." I did go and speak to him and he was really lovely. I have no memory of what he said to me because I was so, "Oh my gosh. I'm speaking to Alan Trounson." From that point forward, I was like, "Yes, he's just a normal human being." I went on to go and have nice conversations with Sir Robert Winston, for example. I felt like I was able to go and talk to them because they're just another human being. I think that's how I've navigated hurdles.
Sandrine: There is something I'd quite like to go back because I guess it's of interest to me. It's the boundaries that people put on themself in terms of their professional development of being so buried. You're talking about headspace, being so engrossed in just actually doing the day job and figuring out how to do the project, or learning the stuff that they have to learn, and not giving themselves permission or not giving themselves some headspace to think about themselves and their professional develop--
Because that's something that of all the many years I've worked as a researcher developer where I've seen so many postdoc and even teach PhD students and academics in a way struggled on their own or spend, or think about professional development as the extra bonus thing, instead of just being a core part of just your professional life. Why do you think that there is so much resistance? I don't know whether it's just in academia or whether in other professions' sphere it's exactly the same.
In a way, I've always been puzzled because as university, we are places of learning, we placing where we teach. However, academics and researchers, there is a resistance towards professional development in a way that I'm still trying to figure out. Because when you think it's time, we don't have the time. Yes, there is time. That's an element, but that's not just it. The thing about figuring things by yourself, what does it say about the organization and academia of not accepting that conversation with peers, conversation with mentors are really at the core?
Zoe: It's something I've pondered as well. Through my role as UKRMP project manager, we've also been trying to get the postdocs and the fellows to go on the career development training course. You do get the same people who come all the time. I think it comes back to permission. You feel like you need permission from your PI to go and do career development. I think as postdocs, people don't feel like they're able to ask for that permission. I think that comes from a lack of knowledge that actually supervisors have metrics around staff movement, for example. As part of their grant reporting, they have to record where their staff go to after they've left them.
Actually, they're measured against that, so it's in their interests to have their staff progress onto bigger and better things. Actually, it's in their interests to have potential collaborators in the future who've moved to different places, where they can work together because it helps the PI. I don't think that's very well communicated by PIs to their staff because actually the PIs are under pressure to get the research for that grant and preliminary data for the next grant, as well as all of the other millions of things. I think there's a missed opportunity early on in your career to learn that it's in everybody's best interest for you to do career development.
Because you are not told that as a new postdoc, except by some, so that's why you get the same people going on the career development all the time because some PIs are very forward in this area. Actually, I was talking to a fellow on UKRMP. She was telling me, Elaine Edmondson, she was telling me that actually on her CV, the first thing on her CV is where her staff have gone to because she's really proud of that. I have to say, I'm really proud I had a team of technicians and they have all gone on to do wonderful things. I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud that they will still come to me and ask me for references, the training that they've had when they worked for me, even though they technically didn't work for me.
You have to make time to develop your own career, but you also have to understand that you also have to drive it, that no one-- this is the mistake I made. I was expecting people to tell me, "Zoe, you should do this. Zoe, you should do that." Because that's what happens when you're an undergraduate. When you're a PhD student, your research, you drive yourself, but there's still certain things you have to do, and you're told that you have to do them, so then you become a postdoc. I think there's an expectation that you'll be told how to develop your career, and you're not.
Sandrine: Linking to something that you said earlier about being a young woman when you started, you took later on as Director of Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion in the biology department where you're based, can you tell us a little bit about this role? Applying for the role, was it part of the realization that you needed to take formal leadership role to be able to showcase that you are a leader in the work that you do within the institution and part of the process of creating demonstrable output for promotion and so on?
Zoe: Again, this came out of nowhere. I was almost made redundant. It was in a period where my contract was running out. We knew that there was another one coming and there was going to be a gap. I felt really unsupported by the institution in that period because there was no bridging funds and no one would-- Even though I had a letter that said, "You are instrumental to the success of the next grant," couldn't get the support for my contract to be extended. At that time, I was like, "What am I going to do?" That was when I got a mentor.
It was like, too late, should have done that before so that there wasn't this gap and all the stress. It was great actually. The mentor, it was through the GROW Program at the University of Sheffield and it was for professional services staff. It wasn't somebody in my department, it wasn't even a scientist. It was completely irrelevant to what I did as a day job. They gave me some really sound advice, and that was, "Go and try your hand at a number of different committees and find an area within the university," because I was keen to understand what else went on in the university.
Actually, a position came up on the ED&I committee for professional services and that's what I was classed as. I thought, I'll join the ED&I committee because I've always been really passionate about fairness. Not necessarily anything to do with gender. I'd spent an awful long time working with technical staff, and the way that some academic staff treat technical staff is just shocking. They are a brilliant group of people. Without them, our research just wouldn't go anywhere, and so I've always promoted technical staff and encouraged them. I wanted to be a voice for them in the department as much as anything.
That's what drove me to join the ED&I committee. Before I'd even sat on the committee, the head of the department at the time said, "Actually, the chair is standing down. Would you consider putting your name forward for the chair?" I didn't necessarily apply, as in I was encouraged to put my name forward. I did go through an interview process and then they offered me the chair of the committee. At this point, again, a bit like the clean room, I rocked stuff at the committee, having never really look into ED&I, I didn't really know what the departmental objectives were. I was told, "That's your committee now. Off you go," and I was like, "Okay." How do we make this work then?
I just knuckled down and did some external reading. That's how I got in there. Being part of the ED&I committee, the faculty was going through a restructuring at the time where they were making all of the exec teams in the different departments were the same. ED&I was starting to get a seat at the table because we'd got a faculty director of ED&I at the time, and she was setting up the faculty committee, and she wanted it replicated in the departments. I then got a seat at the departmental executive team, which was a massive learning curve. It was challenging.
I was in the minority, again, not because of my gender but because of my staff group. I was professional services staff, I wasn't an academic. I think I really enjoyed that role. I spent two and a half years challenging the academics to consider different viewpoints. Again, I could be seen as, "Who are you to tell us this?" Actually the exec team were great and they listened, and they took on board comments and suggestions. I think as a department, we adopted ED&I. Actually, I was recognized by the institution, actually, just the other month for approaches to diversity and inclusion in learning and teaching, so I'm now a vice chancellor award winner.
Sandrine: Many congratulations on this.
Zoe: Thank you.
Sandrine: Which I saw on LinkedIn and that's really, again, I think that's actually been recognized on stuff like that, creating external acknowledgment of the role of people from professional services is actually really important. What do you think that you learned about influence in the context of doing this role? Being the chair of Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion committee, it's only a role of influence. You can't force anyone to do anything. That's the truth. Also, as a department, when you apply for this external accreditation for the attainers one award and so on.
There is an action plan and people say, "Yes, we're going to do this, that," but the reality is that it may not happen. Influencing is something that's really challenging, again, in the power dynamic of being somebody from professional services and working on the leadership committee with many made of academic. How do you think is now your approach to influencing in that context of getting people to take action? Again, as part of your role, as part of the UKRMP as a project manager, also, you are asking people to do things and it's all about influence. What's your magical approach to influencing others? I don't know if there is such a thing.
Zoe: [laughs] I don't know that I have a magical strategy. I guess it comes back down to treating people like humans and respecting everybody's voices. I say that's all I've done. All I've talked done is I've talked about things, I've encouraged other people to talk about things, I've been completely honest and said I don't have all the answers. I have a very white privileged lens through which I see the world. I know there are injustices out there for different groups, minority, underrepresented people, but I don't know what they all are and it's through engagement and conversations--
I didn't just develop an action plan and say, "Here, we're going to do this," I developed a draft action plan, and then I consulted the department. When I say the department, I don't just mean the academics, I mean everyone, the undergraduates, the postgraduates, the master's students. They're only here for a year. Were probably our most diverse group of people. All the staff; technicians, admin, all the way through to senior professors. I just said this is what I'm hoping to achieve, or this is what I hope we can achieve. What are your thoughts on this? Then after comments, we had a working group, we discussed it all and we nailed down the action plan.
Then we started to work together and it was developing different communication strategies. I had to say the same thing, lots of time. In a newsletter, in a staff meeting, and via an email to a specific group. I just talk. I talk and then I listen. I guess that's how I've influenced. I put something out there. I don't have all the answers, but I don't think any one person does have all. It's the same in science.
No, one's got all the answers. Different people have got different parts of the answer, and we have to include everybody in order to get a bigger picture. Even then we won't have all the answers. You can't make people want to change, but you can just subtly influence their thinking by hearing different voices. That's the same. That's what I always do. In fact, that's what I do with my daughter. I ask questions and get her to tell me. That's how I influence, I guess, just by talking.
Sandrine: You had that role for two years and a bit, I guess. Creating change in organization is an incredibly slow process. When you're reflecting on this role that you had, what's the thing that you're the proudest of in terms of--? Sometime it's just an event that took place or something that's changed, that's very small and subtle that other people may not even pay attention to. If there is one thing that you feel I was part of making this happen in this role, what is it?
Zoe: That's a difficult choice. There's two things. Am I allowed two things?
Sandrine: Yes. You are allowed two things.
Zoe: The first thing that I'm very proud of is we set up a biosciences-inspired lecture series to start to talk about some of the issues that affect people in a science context. We had Professor Bugewa Apampa from the University of Birmingham talk to us about the challenges that BAME students face when they're attending university. We had Professor Zenobia Lewis from Liverpool come and talk to us about early career researchers and the challenges that they faced, particularly from the BAME community. Then we had Dr. Jeremy Yoder from the States. He came and did a talk this last June as part of pride month around the challenges that LGBTQI+ people face in research.
They talk about their research and they talk about the impact being part of those minority groups had. I'm really incredibly proud of that because it's raised some issues around socioeconomics, for example, and other challenges that people have. Some of the feedback we've had from those events, it's like, I've been here for 10 years and I've never had an opportunity to talk about these things. It makes such a difference to hear that professionals in this field experience, these same things, just talking about these things. It's a really good seminar series that I'm proud to have managed to get off the ground.
Actually, the other thing that I'm equally proud of is the fact that I am approached now by everyone from senior academics to PhD students, to postdocs, to come and talk to me about challenges that they're having. When I took on the role, I spent two years naively thinking everything was perfect because no one was talking about anything that was wrong. I realize now looking back that actually it took those two years for people to begin to trust me, to come and talk to me about things. Then in the last six months, people have come forward and said, "Zoe, I need to come talk to you about this thing that's happened to me, or that thing that's happening to me."
They are voices that otherwise wouldn't have been heard, that wouldn't have had anybody to listen to them. I'm really passionate about the PGR and the postdocs because I think they're an incredibly vulnerable group of people who have a challenging situation in order to raise concerns. I'm really, really proud that I can be there for those people to come and talk to. That I then have connections within the senior team within HR, that I can take those concerns so that though the people who are raising them can be protected, their issues can be raised. That, I'm incredibly proud of.
Sandrine: It's about creating safe space for people to express some of these challenges and through the engagement that you've had with them, building the trust that they can expose some of the practices that are less than ideal. It links, one of the things that I'm really fascinated by is how do we create research cultures where lots of different type of people can thrive. Because when we're thinking about equality, diversity, and inclusion, it's about challenging the status quo of people making it in science who are from middle-class background, who are white, who are men.
Because yes, lots of women study biology and study science, but not so many make it as professors. We've known about this for such a long time. I guess in your role as director of EDI for two years, often there could be a sense of frustration of how slow the process is and what needs to change in the research environment. What is it that we need to do with the PIs, for those who are creating the environment to create a change where they are better prepared of working well with people in very different context?
Zoe: You just have to keep talking to them, I think, and it's about self-education as well. Something that's happened just last week actually for the first time is we had a teachers' away day, although we weren't away. We were on Zoom. We talked about inclusive curriculum and what that meant. All of the academics in the department were there discussing what that means and how they can make changes in their current teaching practices. This will bleed through into their research practices to be more inclusive and what it means.
I think for me, it's trying to encourage everybody to check their assumptions. Don't assume that just because you do something the way you do it, that everyone will do it the same way. Nor would you want them otherwise we're never going to get different perspectives on research questions. I think the more open you can be, the more acknowledging you can be that there are differences, then the better prepared you are to accept them.
If somebody challenges something that you say, don't automatically become defensive. I think it's the appreciation. Don't be dismissive, don't be defensive. Use it as a learning opportunity because no one person has all of the answers. I think I've said this already. You just have to be open enough to admit to yourself you don't have all the answers, and be willing to learn from others. You don't have to agree with everybody, but you at least have to give people the opportunity to present their point of view. Because they're all valid.
Sandrine: In the context of the role that you had in your department, that's one context. Now in your role for the research network, how can you influence what happens in the network? Again, it's a role that's even more distant because you have academics who are in lots of different institutions. The leverage and the influence that you can have in terms of hosting conversations on these topics maybe is even more limited than you have within your own institution department. What is it that you're trying to do to also create a space for conversation about equality, diversity, and inclusion in the context of a network?
Zoe: I'm not sure that I'm necessarily specifically holding those kind of conversations. Then I've got a group of PIs that are very forward-thinking anyway, so the need is not necessarily there. Our research group is very diverse. Our senior research team is perhaps less diverse, but I don't think I am doing that any differently.
Sandrine: Maybe it's an area where you've not done work yet within the context of the network, but often people think about when you're creating change, you need to have a leverage, and funding is definitely of leverage in influencing change. As a research network, maybe you're locating funding as well. In the way that people, for example, are doing the recruitment, and so there are possibilities of creating change that maybe you didn't have in your department because the role is different. I don't know, it might not be something that the network has worked on yet in terms of creating these practices.
Zoe: It's not something specifically we've focused on, and mainly because the network doesn't fund, we don't have any say over where the funding goes other than the original award. One thing we do do is make sure that our postgraduate or students that are associated with the hub, or our research staff, are all encouraged to take the lead in presenting their own work. They're all acknowledged with images so that you can see the diversity of the group. There are a couple of really simple things you can do, is don't just acknowledge the PI, acknowledge the person who's done the work and put their photo up there so that people can see who they are. We haven't had to do any major initiatives.
Sandrine: Zoe, what's next for you in your career?
Zoe: Good question. I have about two years to make that decision. UKRMP will end in 2023. I have recently taken part in the Innovate UK Lean Launch Program. I am investigating the possibility of spinning out my own company based around my expertise, around self-therapy developments, and those of the network. I'm currently investigating that, which has opened a number of opportunities, let's say. Through having conversations with spinout biotech, venture capitalists, tech transfer offices, there are a myriad of careers I could go into.
I think the area that interests me is chief scientific officer for spinout companies who are developing cell therapies. Somewhere where I can take my translational skills and say, "You've got this process. Let's make it more regulatory-compliant." That kind of space is where I think I'd like to work. I'm investigating that. At the same time, I'm also considering the kind of fellowship of higher education-type routes in case I want to do lecturing. I don't really know to be honest. See what presents itself.
Sandrine: Do you now have a mentor that's helping in that process?
Zoe: I have several mentors, I think it's safe to say. Through the Innovate UK Lean Launch Program, I have come across a number of people who I have spoken to and said, "I quite like your career path. Do you mind if we stay in contact?" I had a business advisor who is actually-- she used to work for the Cell and Gene Therapy Catapult. She now works for a venture capitalist company. I have weekly catch-ups with her just to chew the facts. She's been fabulous, giving me a lot of self-confidence. I have a mentor who works in the commercialization team.
I have, I guess, my line manager within the department. I have my line manager on the UKRMP, Roger Barker, who is a professor. I have a myriad of connections through LinkedIn, all of whom I can go "I'm thinking about this." I have Louis Robson, who also is a senior academic teaching fellow that I might talk to about possible lecturing opportunity. This time, I'm a bit more prepared. I'm thinking two years in the future. I've got two years to put these things in place and test a few out, and see where I go to next. I'm not leaving until two months before my contract runs out, which is what I'll do pretty soon.
Sandrine: That's amazing. To finish off our conversation, if you're thinking about if you had to do it all again, what would you tell your young self?
Zoe: I guess the words of wisdom to my young self would be, make time for your own career development. Drive it. Don't wait for other people to bring it to you. Look at the skills you think you might want to develop, and go to your supervisor with those ideas and get them to support you because they probably will. It will benefit them. Establish a broad network. Don't just focus on the things that you're interested in now, broaden that out and get as many mentors as you can. They don't have to be formal. "Can you be my mentor?" It's just somebody you can go and have a cup of coffee with who works slightly differently.
Mentors. Flexibility, be flexible. Try new things because actually learning new things helps keep you motivated and engaged when you don't have those career goals. The thing that I'm most proud about in my career is the fact that there are people in London who have got human embryonic stem cell derived RP cells in their eyes that came from my clean room. That is the proudest thing I have. My name is nowhere near that research, but if I hadn't put myself in that uncomfortable position of going, what's a clean room? I don't know. Then I wouldn't have achieved my career goal, I guess. I did that before I was 40. That left me with no goal, and so I've struggled. Having that career goal is important.
Sandrine: I guess the reformulating what success looks like, I think is a really important one because, yes, who can say that based on the work that they've done in a laboratory, somebody is living their life differently because of the therapy that you were part of developing, is pretty amazing.
Zoe: Don't let anyone ever tell you you're not good enough just because you're not on the same career path with them.
Sandrine: Thank you so much, Zoe. The conversation with you has been really fascinating. I think the thing of really defining the type of impact that you want on your own term, for me is really what I take away from your experiences. Very, very grateful. Is there anything else we haven't discussed and you feel, I really want to tell the listeners of this podcast about?
Zoe: No, really just be true to yourself. Go out there and do what it is you want, and work hard.
Sandrine: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Zoe: Absolutely. Thank you. Cheerio.
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