Dr Samantha Payne is Assistant Professor in Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph (Canada). She has recently received funding from the Canada Stem Cell Network to examine how nerves modulate the response of organs and tissues to injury.
She has moved quickly from her Postdoc to her first PI role. Interestingly, she has returned to the university where she did her Bachelor's degree and Master.
Through listening to our discussion, you can start thinking about:
If you want to find out more about Samantha: https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Samantha-Payne
Dr Samantha Payne is Assistant Professor in Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph (Canada). She has recently received funding from the Canada Stem Cell Network to examine how nerves modulate the response of organs and tissues to injury.
She has moved quickly from her Postdoc to her first PI role. Interestingly, she has returned to the university where she did her Bachelor's degree and Master.
Through listening to our discussion, you can start thinking about:
If you want to find out more about Samantha: https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/Samantha-Payne
Warning- getting a perfect transcript is hard. This transcript may have mistakes. Be kind to us by accepting these potential errors. I hope that the transcript is helpful to some of you! Apologies in advances for any mistakes in the transcript.
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Sandrine: All right, let's make it start.
[music]
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, dear listeners. I'm Sandrine Soubes, the host on the podcast Research Lives and Culture. Today, it's my pleasure to have with me, Dr. Samantha Payne, and she comes all the way from Canada. I'm having a few interviewee over the last few months who comes from Canada. Samantha is based at the University of Guelph in the Ontario Veterinary College. You're assistant professor, which sounds very grand, and you're also based in the Department of Biomedical Sciences. Welcome on the show, Samantha.
Samantha: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. [chuckles]
Sandrine: I have lots of questions for you. I'm really interested to hear about your career path and how you've navigated the research environment, but maybe let's take some stock on your career so far. Give us a little history of your career so far.
Samantha: Sure. Actually, it's funny you said that assistant professor sounds grand because when I told my dad that I'd gotten the job, he said, "What? Still this assistant professor, not a full professor?" I was like, "God, it's just how it works." I'm from Canada, I'm Canadian citizen, so I did most of my schooling here. I'm actually from a very small town, on the southern edge of Northern Ontario, I guess you would call it, in Muskoka. Growing up, there was very few people went to university. There was no support that way, which I think is an interesting thing I want to point out.
Anyway, I actually went to the University of Guelph, where I am now, for my undergrad. I did an undergrad in Biomedical Sciences. Same department [chuckles] I'm in again, so I came back. I also did a two-year master's here at Guelph in the same department with a colleague who's now a colleague of mine down the hall. I definitely came full circle. I was a master's of Biomedical Sciences. Then, I went to the University of Toronto and that's where I did my PhD, and that was in chemical engineering. I switched years quite a bit, I guess you could say, although not. I was there for five years doing my PhD. It feels like it's a lot [chuckles] now that I'm laying it all out like this. It's like, "Oh, this is a journey."
Then I did a postdoc down at Tufts University in Massachusetts. Tufts is-- There's lots of universities down there, but it's the forgotten one a little bit north of Harvard. I did a postdoc, and that was in breast cancer research, actually. That was about three years, and a job opening came up back here at Guelph. My mentor, he's like, "I think you should apply," and I said, "I'm not ready to apply," and he said, "Just do it." I'm like, "Fine, I will." Then, long story short, I got hired. My lab opened in September 21, so just last September. Yes, I've got some students and things are moving along, and it's been great so far.
Sandrine: A brand new PI?
Samantha: A very brand new, yes. [crosstalk]
Sandrine: A graduated PI. [chuckles]
Samantha: Yes. [chuckles]
Sandrine: It's interesting, the thing that you said that you grew up in an environment where people didn't necessarily go to university because it's always very well to go to university, but then to have the guts, the courage, the motivation, the ambition to do a PhD when you come from an environment that's not what people do. What was the drive that you had to do all these things?
Samantha: I actually initially came to Guelph because of the vet college because I wanted to be a veterinarian. That was my original plan, that childhood, when I grew up I wanted to be a veterinarian thing. That was why I went to the university initially. It wasn't like I knew, "Oh yes, I want to be in academia. I want to be a researcher." Nothing like that. I didn't even know what researchers did or anything. No one in my family has gone to university, and my parents were just like, "Okay, you do you. You seem to know what you're doing, go for it." [chuckles] Then, after my second year of undergrad, I got a position. I applied for summer research positions, so I got one of those in the lab that I ended up doing my master's work in.
That started it all, so I just, I guess, fell in love with research and said, "I don't actually want to be a vet anymore. I really like research. I like bench work. Yes, let's try this and see how it goes." It was more an openness or within myself to to explore other career options and say to myself like, "Maybe being a vet isn't actually the best thing for me. I'm really enjoying this and I seem to be fairly good at it, so maybe I'll explore this." It wasn't necessarily a drive, it was just like, "Let's see what happens." [chuckles]
Sandrine: As you say, an openness to see what comes up.
Samantha: Yes.
Sandrine: At the end of your degree, you had this first experience of research, and how did you go about choosing where to do a PhD? Because it's a critical decision. The topic that we choose, the place where we choose, the supervisor that we take. Often, we are totally naive and blind in the way that we do. Sometime there is just an opportunity and we just take on and we have no idea what we are jumping into. In your case, what was the process to move in this role as a PhD graduate?
Samantha: Very, yes. My master's work, I won't get into it too much, but it was with actually, gecko tail regeneration. We were looking at this non-mammalian model. These lizards, they can naturally regenerate their tail. They can regrow them basically when they lose their tail. That was really, really interesting to me and that started my, I guess, passion for regenerative medicine, which is what I study now. It was a very limited model because it's a lot of the stuff in my field and other fields is for mammalian work, like they use mouse models for things and rats and stuff like that. There's no tools for these non-mammalian models like a lizard.
It was interesting that way because there was a lot of challenges that you could optimize and overcome that way, research-wise. At the end of my master's, there were two things. It was like, "Okay, I'm tired of working in this model that's limited translation and limited tools, so I want to do something that's more applied." That was the word that was in my mind, so I thought, "I'm going to look for PhD positions that are closer to clinical translation," is maybe the word I would use.
Then secondly, to be honest, I was like, "I don't even know if I can do this stuff on my own without the support of my mentor," because my master supervisor was a really great mentor, he still is, but it was like, "Am I the one that's able to do the work, or is it only because I have his support and help?" If that makes sense. I was like, "I need to get out of here. I need to go somewhere else and try something new." Then the lab I landed on at Toronto is, I guess, technically an engineering lab, but the stuff they do is much closer research-wise to translational work.
Another thing, I guess, I could mention, since this is a podcast for women workshop program, and my PhD supervisor was a woman as well. I thought it might be nice to have a woman mentor, whereas previously, I'd mostly had male mentors.
Sandrine: Did you just apply or did you choose, "Okay, this is a person I want to work with"? What was your approach?
Samantha: I guess it was more looking at the research part of it. It was like, "I like this type of research, who does this research?" I didn't really necessarily want to move too, too far away. I wanted to stay within Ontario and the area that I was in, and Toronto is known to be a very good school, and I thought, this might help boost my-- It wasn't cut and dry, but I guess, early on, I was thinking about like, "What am I going to need going forward for my career to even just look good on paper?" I thought, "Toronto's a good school, this research is interesting." I applied to other labs too, but mostly at U of T, at Toronto. I guess it was driven by like, what research do I want to do or what goals do I want to accomplish with a PhD?
Sandrine: Then, after this, after the PhD, you went to do a postdoc in the US. I was talking with another academic about building a research niche and the choices that we make, what we go for in term of the postdoc position, is what is going to shape the research niche that we can develop. At this juncture, from your PhD to your postdoc, what was the logic that you had within yourself of the type of choices that you made?
Samantha: During my PhD, I think everyone probably feels like this at some point, but at one point, I was like, "I hate this. I hate academia. I'm getting out. I'm going to industry. I'm done with this." Then I walked back a little bit from that. By the end, when I was writing my thesis, I was like, "Oh, maybe I like this. Maybe actually, I do enjoy it." It wasn't like I knew, "Okay, I'm going to do a postdoc. I'm definitely staying in academia." It was nothing like that. There were times where I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
At one point, I thought I would get into communication, actually, scientific communication because I really liked writing, and I thought I was fairly good at it. That was also another option, but then I rejected that. For me, I wanted something that was going to be more challenging, and I thought, maybe for me, that wouldn't be challenging enough long term.
When I finally came around to say, "Okay, I'll do a postdoc," a lot of Canadians-- I don't know, you hear this advice. I can't tell you exactly where I hear it from, but I know I heard it a lot is, "Go to the US to do a postdoc because it's, I guess, higher profile." I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's the prevailing thought. It was like, "Okay." That's a chance to live in another country but maybe not one that's so different from Canada, so it's an easier transition. It was like, "Oh, you know what? I'll try. I'll start emailing some professors, we'll see what happens." I emailed a few.
One person I didn't hear back from at all, the other person said, "I don't have room in my lab." Again, it was, I guess, driven by the research. I'd heard about a professor at Tufts that was doing regenerative medicine, but really interesting stuff. I actually contacted him and he said, "Oh, there's a new professor who studies breast cancer, but her and I want to collaborate so we could hire you to take on this project between the two labs." That was how I ended up working on breast cancer, but I actually, was looking for more positions in my field, what I've come to think of as my field.
Again, it was just putting little feelers out there, seeing what I got back. I think maybe it's also a degree of flexibility is important or-- I know not everyone can be flexible with where they're going or what they're doing, but I think that definitely served me well, that I wasn't like, "I have to be at this school," or "I have to be in this location." It was like, "Let's see what sticks and I'm okay living in a new city or new country and go from there."
Sandrine: In term of the topic, going back to this idea of how do we build the space that we want to work in later on in our careers, how did this postdoc fit in term of building the research space that you're in now?
Samantha: It was really great. Again, it was like, "I'm going to do this project that combines somehow cancer and regeneration." It ended up being very cancer-heavy, which I wasn't expecting going in, but I'm really glad it happened that way because I learned a ton of new techniques. Just from a practical standpoint that way, things that I don't think I would've learned if I stayed more in my silo of regenerative medicine.
Even just different ways of looking at research questions. I met a lot of cancer biologists. Just to get exposure in another field and how people work, I think, served me really well because as a PI running your own lab, you have to be very adaptable and I think always on the lookout for opportunities, or new interesting questions that you might want to explore, or collaborations and things like that.
It allowed me to see from others' points of view, research-wise, and hopefully, pick up on interesting questions, research questions that I might not have if I had a more limited experience within one field. I think that was the biggest thing, was this exposure and the new techniques that I learned and new connections. It was good to be in the US to see how they do things down there. I think I could have easily done a postdoc in Canada and been very happy and also gained all of the skills and things I needed but--
Sandrine: It's interesting the thing that you say about the exposure and in a way, going from one thing to another in term of the research topics that you may not necessarily have considered before. One of the thing that often new PIs find really challenging is when they trying to bring together all of the expertise that they have and trying to become the one person who do that thing, whatever that thing is. What was the process for you in term of really pinpointing?
Because again, if you apply for an academic position, it may be very open in term of what they asking you to present. How did you get to the point say, "Okay, that's what I do," and bringing the PhD, the postdoc, the master, bringing everything together and say, "Okay, that's what I'm about, that's what I research, that's what I want to be known for in the field." How did you make this happen?
Samantha: I don't know that I have necessarily made it happen. I'm trying. The process of it-- [crosstalk] That's funny though because a lot of my mentors and people would say, "You have to decide who are you. If someone asks you in one sentence, what researcher are you? You have to have something." I said, "But I like everything. I'm so interested in everything." I think that's a little bit reflected in my background because I jumped around in different labs and fields and things like that. I guess it was when I was applying for the job I have now because I realized, "Okay, I do have to come together and make some brand. Like, who is Sam as a researcher, the brand?"
I wanted to still incorporate and honor all of the different research experiences that I had, but it did need to be cohesive. I went back to regenerative medicine because that was my roots, but I wanted to pull in all my other experiences. It didn't happen in a day, but I think I just over time, I like to-- I have a notebook and I'll write down, scribble down things like mind maps and all that kind of stuff, people say these different exercises that you can do, brainstorming, but it got cultivated, I guess, into this umbrella of regenerative medicine, but like, "Within that, here's what I do, I guess." I'm trying to keep it general, so I don't get too technical with the research [laughs] in my answer.
Sandrine: Something I've often discussed with new PIs is when you set up your lab and you're at this threshold of having to apply for bigger grants and you're trying to build your own collaboration beyond the collaboration maybe that you had as a postoc. The new PIs I've discussed with say, "In the first few years, I was throwing myself all over the place." Obviously, you're very early on in your PI journey, but what is it that you think that you've done well in term of establishing that space that you are in, in term of creating new opportunities and creating the excitement of looking at other projects, and at the same time, making it manageable in term of building your research team without losing the plot?
Samantha: I have already been told that I'm spreading myself too thin. It was said jokingly by somebody, [laughs] so we'll see how that goes. I think, for me, it's been, you eventually get enough experience, I think, after doing a PhD, doing a postdoc and all that, that you can somewhat identify, maybe not gaps, but at least areas where you're like, "I don't know if anyone's really figured this out yet." Or at least something or maybe at least, it interests you more than another.
That's the approach I took to fit myself into what exists in the field and the researchers that already exist. Because that's the thing, you don't want to reinvent the wheel. There's already so many established labs out there that do similar work and it's like, "I can't like compete against them." Not that you're directly competing, but-- I looked for a little niche that I could fill. I think that's been my approach so far is identifying, "I don't think anyone's actually looked at this or studied it thoroughly, so is it something that my skills and expertise can fit into?" That's where we've gone so far with the lab. That and also the funding, unfortunately, plays a big role.
It was like, "I have limited money until I can get external grants," so it's like, "What can we do that's cheaper [laughs] and that fits within something and it would be of interest to people in the field, without stepping on toes or doing something that's not really within the realm of my expertise, and be available, everything that's here, tech, the equipment and things like that?"
Sandrine: Yes, because you miss your gap, but if no funder is prepared to actually fund this, it's like, you may have to rethink how you approach this.
Samantha: Yes. Again, I think it comes to being flexible and adaptable. I think, hopefully, my research program is able to pivot if we're not seeing the results that we're hoping to see. We're not at that stage yet. Right now, we're just collecting results. I definitely lie awake sometimes at 3:00 AM thinking, "Oh, if we don't get the results that we're looking for, what are we going to do?" I think we'll be able to pivot. I think it's important to have backup plans. Yes, I guess there's a fine balance between spreading yourself too thin but still having multiple avenues that you can go down.
Sandrine: In the role that you now have in your institution, are you also involved in teaching? What's the portfolio of activities that you have?
Samantha: You probably get a sense of this when you're a grad student at a postdoc, but professors wear so many different hats. I really like it because I like switching to different tasks and roles day-to-day, but yes, it's a lot. The position that I got, it-- I don't think all of them are like this, but this one said specifically, "You will teach this class." I knew that going in that I was going to be responsible for teaching a certain class, which is actually, vet anatomy. I actually teach the vet students now, despite not being one. I knew that going in. It's a fairly heavy load teaching-wise. I coordinate the course, and it's a two-semester course. I got teaching relief for my first year, so I didn't really do much teaching, but now this fall, I'll be starting. [laughs] I'll see how it goes because it's just juggling so many balls, I guess. This will be adding a large ball to what I'm juggling.
There's that part of it and then there's also the service aspect is the other part of-- You have your division of effort that's built into your contract, and most people's division of effort for service is around maybe 10% from what I've seen. I think everyone does far more than that, so you need to be prepared to be stretched pretty thin sometimes.
Sandrine: One of the things that I really get groups of researcher to think about when I run workshop is this concept of assertiveness. How do we become assertive in the research environment in a way that that works for us? We all have our own definition of assertiveness. What does it mean to you to be an assertive scientist? What does assertiveness look like in your world?
Samantha: That's a good question that I knew was coming. I guess used to not be a very assertive person, so I don't know if this comes more or less easily to certain people, but for me, I was one of those people that would, "Oh, I have a good question that I want to ask, but I'm afraid to put my hand up," that sort of thing. [laughs] I think it's taken time to slowly realize like, "Oh, you--" Talking to myself like, "You do have good ideas, and you do have things to say, and you should say them." It's like being your own cheerleader a little bit. Just forcing myself to be assertive essentially. It is almost like you have to force yourself sometimes, or I have to anyways. It's something that, I guess, I'm constantly working on, that I would say, in grad school, I started to get more confidence. It is a confidence thing, definitely, and there's the whole imposter syndrome, which I imagine everyone mentions that you interview. I'm sure everyone mentions.
Sandrine: Yes, everyone, and even very senior academics also do, to be fair.
Samantha: Yes, it sounds like it doesn't go away, which is unfortunate, [chuckles] but you just work on it slowly. I think it's also important to realize, be kind to yourself. Maybe you're not as assertive as you would like in some situation, and that's okay. It's like, try harder next time type thing. Just being a little bit kind to yourself when you maybe aren't as assertive as you would like.
Sandrine: What do you think were the things that you did during your PhD and your postdoc that in a way, contributed to building your assertiveness, your confidence? What were the key activities or key success that in a way, where game changer in the way that you felt that you could conduct your research career?
Samantha: I think again, it's the little things, like day-to-day. I really think having good mentors and peers. Whatever stage you're at, I think that for me really, really helped me. In my PhD especially, I had a really good group of other grad students that I was friends with in the lab. It was a big lab, and I feel like they really helped me be more confident, and then that led to be being more assertive. Mentorship as well, of course, is really important, and having those role models where you could see other women in these positions. When you're a grad student or a postdoc and you see them being assertive and you say like, "I can do that too, right?"
I think that is really key to have that mentorship for, even just observing how women in higher positions than you behave and modeling yourself off of that. That's what I've found, especially since taking this position. I don't know if this is going to sound like-- It's not like how I think a professor should behave, but I often am able to push myself a little more because I think, "Hey, you're in charge now. You're the PI, so you need to step up." It's like, again, forcing myself to take this role and be more assertive, in a good way though.
Sandrine: In a way, the transition to running your your own lab is a massive one because it's very much about the letting go of turn of the experimental side of the science, and having others deliver your beautiful experiments or not.
[laughter]
One of the topic I'm really interested is this idea of how do we build a research culture where people who are very different us can thrive? In theory, we may have very grand ideas about what ideally we would want to do and how we would want to be with others, but the reality of the pressure that you are under in term of your own position and in term of getting the funding, delivering the experiment based on the funding. All of this pressure are tremendous, so being your best self is often really hard. Tell us maybe about this expense of this transition in this current role.
Samantha: It is a bizarrely huge jump from a postdoc to a professor. It's honestly, I feel like-- I don't know about other fields and different careers, but I think it has to be one of the biggest weirdly large jump, right? It really is. I was the only postdoc in that lab for a long time, so I was in this role where I was mentoring the grad students and in charge of ordering things for the lab, maintaining-- I had a bit of that and I thought, "This will help prepare me to be a professor," which it did, but it still a [chuckles] crazy jump when you think about it.
A lot of my training has been in the technical aspect of things, and then suddenly, you're not doing those things anymore. You're not running experiments. Now, you're really just 90% of the time managing people. It was for sure a huge adjustment that I'm still going through, I guess. It's hard because sometimes I think, "Oh, I'm losing all my lab skills. I'm not going to be able to do this as well as I used to." It's like, letting go of that and trusting your students to do that stuff for you. Then, it's like, "I don't want to micromanage," which I'm sometimes tempted to do because I want to be in seeing the experiments. Taking a step back and trusting the students to do the work, but still providing like the guidance that they need.
I think what I've noticed is, and this is probably nothing revolutionary, but I had to tailor my mentorship. The way I mentor every student has to be individual for that student. That was something I quickly realized. Some students need a little more management than others. It's like getting to know the students. We have weekly meetings. At first, it's like, you're total strangers, but you get to know them, and you see what seems to work for them, what doesn't work so much, and you adjust yourself based on that.
Yes, it is very much these skills that-- Not that I never got training for them, but not really in any official capacity. Sometimes it's been like, "Oh, that's why my PhD supervisor did this the way she did." I'm like, "That's so smart, I'm going to do that too." There's been a lot of that, where I'm like, "Wow, I totally get it now." Things that maybe used to annoy me when I was a grad student, I was like, "No, I see why they did that now." [chuckles] Definitely taking what you've seen works in other people and in your experience, and applying it.
Sandrine: From what you're saying, you already had quite an experience in term of managing orders informally. What is really the crux of why it feels so different as a PI? What changed in the way that you maybe you perceived your role, you perceived your relationship with people that you work with?
Samantha: Yes, I think, the word you just said, responsibility. I think that's probably the biggest difference is now, you're suddenly very responsible for-- I think back to when I was a grad student and how important grad school was in my life. It's a huge chunk of your life, so it's like, "I'm now responsible for these students to succeed in their degrees, and to have a good time, and enjoy research, and enjoy science, things like that." It's not always bad, but sometimes it can be this pressure that's like, "I'm responsible for this." The department's given me money and they say, "Go off and do your science." It's like, "Okay, I've been given this money that I'm now responsible for doing something with."
I think that's the biggest thing. You just don't have that same level of responsibility even as a postdoc, and you're not responsible to get the money either, so you don't have to have those worries of writing grants and things like that. I think that's probably the biggest difference.
Also, its the, I'm the boss now. I'm doing air quotes. Again, going back to the assertiveness, you have to step up and be the boss. That's not necessarily, as in you're being harsh with the students or things like that, but you do have to be-- They're looking to you for guidance. That's something that I'm sometimes uncomfortable with to some extent, because imposter syndrome again. I'm like, "Who am I to know any better? Maybe I don't know any better." It's just silencing that voice a little bit and being the supervisor that the students are looking for, so that they have confidence to do their work and develop themselves as researchers as well.
Sandrine: I do a lot of coaching with academics and with new PIs in particular, and one of the things that often comes up in these coaching sessions is the challenge new PIs have in term of, in the business world, what people will call performance management. When you have a student who really isn't doing the experiment. Maybe really nice, but really isn't doing the work for PIs who try to be incredibly supportive. The context of somebody maybe who doesn't really care about the experiments that you care about of being the PI who really create the positive environment, the exciting environment, when people are feeling maybe a little bit low for whatever reason. How do you manage that, this actually being a manager when you are trying to really be supportive of others?
Samantha: Again, I don't know that I've nailed down my strategy, but [chuckles] yes, no, you're right. The pandemic, of course, that's obviously had a huge role in my lab and since starting it up and things like that. We were still essential personnel only when I first opened the lab last September. There definitely was a period where the students, so they're new to research, they're new grad students, and so they don't know how it's supposed to work normally, and now we're in this abnormal situation with the pandemic. There was lag because I had to buy equipment, I had to set up the space, get certifications, all that sort of thing.
I think it was a very weird beginning for them because it just wasn't typical. As a new lab, they're not taking over anyone's project. There's no senior grad student support, which by the way, I think is very important to have. Or if you can have it, that's very, very important, to just have a role model, but that's a little bit more at the level of a grad student. I don't have any of that, so there was a struggle at first where I think they wanted to work and they were excited to do it, but they didn't maybe know where to start, and then they couldn't be coming in regularly.
I definitely had to build a bit of momentum, like I'll try to nurture their excitement, and get them into it, and get them into the head space a little more. Things that have happened, like I don't want to necessarily force anyone to talk about things if they're uncomfortable, but I want them to know that I am here if they want to talk, or I am here for support. I've tried to strike a balance with that, but I want them to know, my door is always open type thing. I just basically think about, what would I have wanted as a student? Keeping in mind that I have a duty to these students to support them in whatever way they need. I'm still working on it. [laughs]
Sandrine: It's a lifelong project of learning to supervise and mentor others, I suppose. In what you've experienced so far, what do you think that you do well that enable you to be assertive with your students, but in a way, that that maintain a positive ethos in the way that you are approaching hard conversation with them?
Samantha: I started out, and we'll see how things change, but I wanted to have a decent amount of structure in the lab, so we have weekly scheduled meetings. Everyone meets as a lab, and that's because I want to keep the students in touch with one another. I think it's just good to have this regular schedule. The one-on-one meetings, I tell them, "This is your hour where I'm available to you, so whatever you want to talk about or meet about, I'm there for you at that time."
I'm recognizing that they're adults so they can manage their own time, but it's like being available for them if they need it type thing. It's like a benefit of the doubts approach. Then if one of them, they stop coming in or they're not getting the work done, then I think that's where these sort of like, "Okay, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but now we need to talk about this and address this." Which I have actually, had to do a little bit, and it was very uncomfortable, [chuckles] but I was like, "This needs to happen because again, it's like this is my role now so I have to do it even if it's uncomfortable and I don't like it." It was just, yes, like, "I'm here for you to support you, but you also have to meet me halfway." I try to be fair. I hope I'm being fair, but at the same time, eventually, this is not acceptable. Then that's where I have to be assertive.
Sandrine: What do you think has helped you to prepare this conversation or to have them when sometime we want to avoid them? I'm thinking about that because I've seen in some universities where you may have some staff who don't really deliver on the research that they're meant to be doing, and for a lot of complicated reason. A head of department may completely avoid to address, "Okay, why is this academic not applying for funding anymore?" Or, "Why is this academic just not writing their papers anymore?"
I guess probably in the private sector, people would not avoid this conversation, but in academia, these management practices, people are not used to them. It's changed, and maybe not necessarily for the best, but these are often really hard conversations. How do you yourself feel ready to have them feel that you look after yourself or so when you're having these hard conversations?
Samantha: I was going to say, academia doesn't really have an HR department, which maybe it does, but if it does, [laughs] I don't know. I've never been aware of it. It's a bizarre area where you're just left to your own devices, individual labs. To some extent, there are supports there. Yes, for me, I went to my mentors and I said like, "This is my issue, how would you handle this?" I think it's important to get multiple people's perspective, so don't just go to one person and ask. Go to people whose opinion you value, but maybe that are working in different areas.
I actually went to-- My husband, he's a mechanical engineer and he's a manager, and so I wanted his outside perspective about the managerial aspects. I would sometimes ask him because I tend to be a little bit-- I might be a little bit not overboard, but a little too actually, honestly, aggressive sometimes in my feelings and things. He'd say like, "No, no, no, you can't say that. You got to frame it positively like this," and I'd be like, "Okay." I also have a lot of friends that from grad school that are now in biotech, in industry, and as you alluded to, they tend to have more [chuckles] standardized practices for some of this stuff. I would ask them like, "What would you do?"
Yes, so I think honestly, I always lean on my network so much for things. I think, as you go through grad school and postdoc, you really do-- I was surprised at how much of a network I did have, I think actually, because it accumulates over time. When I became a professor and started reaching out to people more for some of this stuff, it was like, "Oh, I actually have a lot of people that I could go to," which is really, really nice.
Yes, I prepared myself that, I guess, makes sense as a researcher. I did the research and wrote some notes before I have to have any sort of tougher conversations, because I know I'll get nervous. I guess I'm sort of recognizing my weaknesses. It's like, "Okay, I know I'm going to get nervous, I'm probably going to ramble," so I would make notes to myself and do the research that I came in feeling pretty confident about what needed to get done at the meeting. Yes, stay on track and keep that assertiveness, I guess.
Sandrine: In a way, the nervousness comes also from caring and from trying to find the right approach to having some of this challenging conversation. I think maybe the nervousness is a good thing because it forces you to be more thoughtful on how you are approaching it and how you are trying to think, "Okay, what is this person actually experiencing? Why is it that they behaving like this?" In a way, taking a pause and reflecting on that, instead of just barging with your own expectation without actually considering the other side.
Samantha: Yes, definitely. Yes, the nervousness is because I care a lot. I want things to be smooth and everyone to be having a good experience, for sure. I do tend to not think the worst of somebody right away, but I'll have a snap reaction to things. You know what I mean? That's usually negative, and so I have to like walk myself down from that. I think yes, recognizing that in myself, and then doing whatever I need to do to-[chuckles] mitigate that is the strategy. It's true, you don't know why somebody's behaved the way they did or said what they did. There could be some other underlying reason, and you don't want to assume things until you talk to them. It's about giving the benefit of the doubt again.
Sandrine: I like to gear the conversation also in term of navigating the institution, navigating the research environment, and with this idea of assertiveness at the COVID. Because when you become an assistant professor, you may have a grand idea about how you would want to run your lab and what you would want. The reality of working in a department with all the expectation that are placed on you. You are talking about this idea of the teaching and the service. Often, things may get dumped on a desk because we don't really know how to say no. Especially when you're new in a department, I suppose you want to give a good impression, you want to contribute well, so it's easy to be taken advantage of, or it's easy to say yes to tons of stuff because you say, "Oh, it will be a good experience."
What's been your own approach in making it manageable so that, yes, okay, you are a good contributor in the department. Yes, okay, you are learning new stuff, but at the same, time you are able to keep in balance. Or maybe you haven't, I don't know. Again, I'm [laughs] making a gross assumption here.
Samantha: [laughs] A good assumption. I think everyone I talked to before starting this job warned me that that would happen. I think it's pretty generally well known that the resources are stretched pretty thin, I think, at a lot of Canadian universities. You will be asked to do, I think, a lot of stuff. That is just inevitable. For me, one of the things was, and I got this advice and I found it to be true, is that the chair, your department chair is, so that's, he's technically my boss, my chair and he-- Or not technically, he is my boss, but [laughs] anyways.
I think having someone, your boss, be someone that's going to protect your time is very important. A lot of people also did say that to me because your chair can be your buffer for some of this stuff. If you're asked to be on a committee and maybe you think you don't have enough time, you can go to your chair and say like, "Hey, I don't know that I have time." Or like, "What do you think?" They'll offer you advice often, and then you can even have the chair say like, "Oh no, I'd rather, Samantha doesn't do that. She's already on these other committees." There's that buffer, which is nice to take advantage of, especially if you maybe don't feel like you can be assertive enough to say no directly.
I think I'm in a bit of a different situation because I actually, I do know quite a few people in this department and I knew them when I was a grad student. It was 10 years ago or so, or more than that. I feel a little more comfortable with some people enough to say no directly, which has been nice. Obviously, an advantage. I probably have taken on a little too much, but I was honestly very excited and just keen on being in this role and being a part of the department that I was okay with that. I think it's maybe being honest with yourself and saying, "Are you saying yes because you actually really want to do this and you're fine with it being a lot of work? Or are you saying yes because you feel like you have to be?"
Yes, maybe assessing how you're feeling, but I also do think it seems like things are getting a bit better. Like everyone's recognizing, you can't do that. You can't force people to say yes to you. I think people are being more respectful of others time. It seems like the culture's changing somewhat from when I was a grad student and stuff.
Sandrine: Oh, so there is the dimension of, if you're thinking about the promotion criteria, and often, there are lots of activities on the side beyond research that we need to get involved to be able to demonstrate that we ought to be promoted. Often, in a lot of the conversation I have with early career academics, that's the challenge is that, they know that there are other stuff that they need to do to be promoted, but there is a lack of clarity from departments in term of saying, "Okay, these are exactly the committee where you need to have been on or this is--" Often, it's so vague that for many early career academic, they find it really, really difficult to say, "Okay yes, I can say this to that, and I should say no to this other thing."
In your case, do you think that having a department chair who, as you described, it is a buffer, has it been your strategy to use this person to think about, "Okay, is this helping the next step or is it not?"
Samantha: Yes, I was going to say that, that is for sure another thing that I think about is whether or not it's going to benefit me in some way to do whatever I'm being asked to do, for sure, for the career aspect of it. When I have been asked to be on a committee, I wait and I ask again my mentors or whoever like, "What do you think? Would you go on this?" Or if I know someone that's been on a similar committee like, "How was your experience?" My chair has been great about, "Okay, here's what you're going to need for tenure type thing," but it is very kind of word of mouth. There's no set guidelines like, "Yes, you should be on this committee or do this work."
The committees I am on, I think, are beneficial to me and getting me into this role more. I'm on a grad program committee, so I actually review grad student scholarship applications and award applications. I've gotten familiar with the research and the department because I've been reading these applications, so it was helpful that way and to get a sense of what level the grad students are at. That one's a lot of work actually, but I think it's worth it because of I'm picking up on what's going on in the department.
Sandrine: It's a good example because in a way, it's about doing a job that actually teaches you something about the landscape in terms of yes, who are doing, what sort of work are doing, my colleagues in the department, and how do students come across in their application? When you start recruiting your own PhD student, it's like knowing what I want to see in this application in terms of the way I will be choosing.
Samantha: Yes, definitely. I think it's strategic choice. The other thing is, it's a funny role because your colleagues are presumably going to be your colleagues for the next 20 to 30 years, if you stay in this one location, so I think people have long memories. If you are saying no-- Again, not that you should feel pressured to say yes to everything, but if you are saying no, it's like, people might remember that down the line. There's kind of that aspect too. Too that, perhaps you sometimes might say yes because it's going to be advantageous to you that way to kind of-- This sounds now like you're wheeling and dealing, which isn't the case, but you know what I mean? There is that aspect to it as well.
Sandrine: In the UK, we will call that good at academic citizenship.
Samantha: There we go, yes. [chuckles]
Sandrine: Yes, that's the term that we use. How does it feel like to go back to the department where you started? I'm asking that because again, I've talked to lots of research fellows in the UK who sometime take independent research funding, but stay in the the same department where they've been a postdoc, for example. The way that people are in the research environment in a department, all the power dynamics that are at play when you've been there as a postdoc and the way that you are perceived by the academies. You were an undergrad and a master's student in the department that you are now, so maybe it's different. Still, how does it feel like to go back home, if I may say?
[laughter]
Samantha: Yes, that did give me pause. Part of me was like, "Ooh, is this a good idea to go back?" It's better now, but especially when I first started, it was like, "Okay, I want people to see me as professor, not that grad student, for sure." Even though I graduated my master's in 2012, so there's been a decent amount of time between it, but for sure, and I think it was mostly in my own head. I don't think anyone was thinking about me as a student. I think a lot of people forgot or didn't even really realize. It was okay. I think it was mostly just in my head, but there was a little bit of like, "Oh yes, I got to appear as a professor." I went out and I bought some new clothes, and tried to look more professional, and did that sort of thing.
I guess the other aspect of it was my interview was totally virtual, because it was-- I was in Boston, but it was also the pandemic. I just can't imagine doing a virtual interview and not being able to see the place that you were interviewing at, and then make a decision. It worked out well for me in a way because I already knew what the department looked like, I already knew the facilities, I already knew a lot of the people, so it was a much easier decision that way to accept the job offer because otherwise, it would've been just seeing everything through the screen, which I just can't imagine. It would've been so hard.
Sandrine: Yes, making decision based on these Zoom interviews and without having meet people in person and visiting the place would be really difficult.
Samantha: Yes, because there was-- Not then, but there was a time where with the visa I had to work in the US, the J-1, there was the Trump administration. There was some difficulties and I wasn't sure if I would be able to come home and get back into the country. Anyway, so I think there were good and bad things with returning back to the department. Like I mentioned earlier, I am familiar with some of the people enough that I feel comfortable that I could knock on their office door and come in for a chat and things like that. For me, that was really nice.
I could see on the flip side, maybe some people might not want to go back to where they were. They might like a fresh start with new people that don't have any preconceived notions about them, things like that. For me, it worked out really well and I'm happy with it, but yes, there has been a little bit of a just Professor Samantha Payne, not Samantha Payne MSc student, so yes.
Sandrine: I'm going to soon close our discussion, but I like to go back to one of the first thing that you said in term of coming from a family where nobody went to university. I was interested in the context of thinking of equality, diversity, and inclusion and getting the research environment to be a much more diverse environment with people who come from a background where nobody's gone to uni, or people coming from ethnic minorities where they don't see people like themselves in the research sphere. What do you think is your take now in the role that maybe you can play now that you are a research leader in your institution in term of bringing people from different background, not the traditional background of who we expect to inhabit the research space?
Samantha: That's a good question. I think to be clear, despite my upbringing of not knowing people in university, that sort of thing and navigating that world, I'm still incredibly privileged it wasn't like some people's situations, but I just like to be very vocal about it because I think it's important. I'm not the first person to say this, but representation. I hope that other students if they see me and, "Oh, she became a professor, maybe I can do it too." I think that's super, super important.
If you don't have the role models, you don't know what's possible. Again, that self-confidence thing. I do strive to put myself out there, and I'm always happy to chat to anyone about my experience so that they can see, it's totally possible. Also, in my PhD, I actually did a three-month exchange to a lab in South Korea. I did research there, and that was very eye-opening. I met a lot of international students. Toronto has a lot of international grad students, Guelph not so much, but that was a very valuable experience for seeing the perspective of people from other countries and seeing how privileged we are in Canada in terms of being able to just go to university fairly easily.
Actually, I'm trying to bring some of that perspective, the international perspective with me now because as I mentioned, Guelph doesn't have a very big international grad student community, especially in my department, and I would like to change that. I think we all benefit when we have this diverse collection of people. Different viewpoints, everyone learns. Everyone learns from everyone. I didn't realize before I was in Korea. You hear about Canada and it's like, "Oh yes, we welcome immigrants and please come," but it's actually super difficult to get a visa, which I didn't realize. I thought, "If we're so welcoming to immigrants, it must be easy." That's my ignorant take on it.
Even just for these students to get a visa to come visit for a conference, like I know someone that was denied. It's like, she just wanted to come for a conference. Honestly, it's really unfair and it's upsetting. I'm doing whatever I can in my small way, I guess, to mitigate that, so I'm actually the program coordinator for a international master's course based stream. It's like a one-year master's to get international students into the department and prepare them for when they do come, so they're not just dropped off in Canada and they have no idea how things work here, which I often also see with some international students.
My long ramble is that, I guess, I'm trying to incorporate and even in small ways into my practices, like just being a representative for students that are first generation and the international aspect of things.
Sandrine: No, that's interesting. It's true that getting people ready to succeed in the UK. Many universities, because of the funding that they bring, are very keen to get international PhD student and master's student and so on, but getting people to come to your institution and be ready to function in a very different educational context is really important. Also, it goes with people who even from your own country who come from underprivileged background. When they enter the research space or the university space, what is the environment to get them to be successful? Often, we don't put in probably enough effort in creating that space.
Samantha: Yes, I don't think so. It's you don't know what you don't know. Even for me, I didn't have anyone to tell me, "This is how you apply to university. This is how you apply to lab jobs." I just fumbled along as I went type thing and it worked out for me, but you know what mean? It's not ideal necessarily, so just having some of these things in place. I feel like now that I am in this position where I've had success, it's like, you got to pay it forward. I'm really, really strong believer in that, that it's now my duty to help out grad students in the next generation type thing. I sound very noble when I say that, but I actually do believe. [chuckles]
Sandrine: No, no, no, I believe you. Thank you so much, Samantha. I'm going to ask you my last questions that I like to ask too many of my podcast interviewing and it's, what gives you joy in your research life?
Samantha: Oh yes, that's a fun question. It's a good question too because I think it's important to remind yourself that it does give you joy out the bad days. Maybe it's changed a little bit when I was a student and a postdoc. It was more when you get your results and you think, "I'm the first person that's done this experiment and nobody has seen this before me." It's a little bit of a thrill, even if maybe they're negative results. It's like, that I've accomplished something that no one has before and seeing your hard work come into something.
I think that gave me a lot of joy, even though it was sometimes fleeting and far in between. Now, it's really-- I really enjoy mentoring. I think that's a big part of the job and it's really nice to see my students get excited in the same way because now I have to live vicariously through them for their experiments. [chuckles] I had a student, he got these really nice images and he was showing his non-science friends and he was telling me about it and how they thought it was so cool that he's a scientist. I'm like, "Yes, you are a scientist." He's like, "I never thought about that way." I'm like, "Yes, you are. You're doing research, you're a scientist."
That secondhand excitement, I guess, is probably really rewarding. That's a really rewarding part of the job. That, and when I got my first grant. It's like, "Okay, my ideas have been validated." There's this sense of accomplishment that way, I guess. It's just not at the bench anymore.
Sandrine: If there was one piece of wisdom that you will want to share with upcoming researchers, people who again, are on the curb of, "I don't know whether this research life is really for me. I don't know if I really belong." What would you say to them in passing on your wisdom?
Samantha: You don't know what people are thinking. You might feel like you don't belong, but everyone feels like that. You should not feel like that, but I think it's just maybe being honest with yourself, is the way I would put it in both, that be honest, that you are capable, and you do know this. You've gone through this training and you're an expert. You've put in the work. Even at the level of second year grad student like, you got to where you are by your own hard work. Being honest about that, that you do have capabilities.
Then, I guess, also being honest about your limitations and knowing what you need to work on maybe, or if you have a goal in mind, "What do I need to achieve this that I'm lacking currently?" I think it works both ways in a lot of-- I've done a lot of self-reflection, I guess, in my new position, [laughs] I would say, yes, it comes down to this honesty. Importantly, I guess back to your theme of assertiveness is saying to yourself, "No, I earned this. I deserve to be here and I've done the hard work." I think that's really, really important.
Sandrine: That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Samantha. It's been really a pleasure talking to you. Really, really lovely meeting you. Thank you.
Samantha: Thanks so much for having me. It was wonderful.
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[00:54:10] [END OF AUDIO]