38- Dr Stephen Aderinto- Aspiring to promote science in the African context

Stephen Aderinto is an early-career scientist working in the Chemistry Department at the University of Sheffield. He is not scared of challenges having left Nigeria for his undergraduate studies in China and a PhD in the UK. Now, he works on a multidisciplinary project to develop DNA probes to be used in cancer R&D.

Find out a bit more about Stephen:
 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Stephen-Aderinto

https://chemistrycommunity.nature.com/posts/global-statements-on-diversity-stephen-o-aderinto

Things to reflect on prompted by the discussion with Stephen:

For PIs:

·      How are your biases contributing to how you are considering PhD applicants from overseas?

·      How do you engage with your PhD students from the Global South to explore their context and see how you could best support them?

·      Have you considered how maintaining collaborative links with your PhD alumni from the Global South may be essential in their ability to continue to engage in their research endeavours?

For early career researchers:

·      Can you engage more often with your colleagues from the Global South to build your own understanding of research contexts in different countries?

·      What are you learning about different ways of working from interacting with colleagues from multicultural backgrounds?

·      Can you challenge your own biases through engaging with research colleagues who have very different experiences of the research environments?

For early career researchers from the Global South:

·      Are you building strong collaborations during your PhD that you could maintain once you go back to your country?

·      Do you feel that you are open enough with your supervisor to share what the research context is like in your home country, so they can understand your context?

·      What are you doing to build your leadership skills broadly beyond the scope of your research project?

Transcript

Warning- getting a perfect transcript is  hard. This transcript may have mistakes. Be kind to us by accepting these potential errors. I hope that the transcript is helpful to some of you! Apologies in advances for any mistakes in the transcript.
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Sandrine: Okay, let's get started.

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Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, dear listeners. I've got the pleasure to have with me a PhD student from the University of Sheffield, Stephen Aderinto. I met Stephen probably four years ago, three or four years ago now, when he was just starting his PhD. We met during an induction and we had some very interesting discussion. Welcome on the podcast, Stephen.

Stephen Aderinto: Thank you so much, Dr. Sandrine. I'm happy to be here with you on this podcast.

Sandrine: Stephen, you've started a PhD in a UK university, but can you tell us a little bit about where you're coming from and how you got interested into science?

Stephen: Oh, thank you so much for that question. I don't think there is any special motivation for me getting into science other than the fact that I sensed a strong sense of aptitude for science subjects, especially chemistry, physics and biology. I discovered that quite early in the course of my secondary school education, and most especially chemistry. That, I think, was the sole motivation for me to have charted the cause of wanting to do science as a career. There is nothing, so to speak, of any motivation in my immediate environment because science is not very popularized in Africa.

Sandrine: That's interesting because often people talk about specific experiences that they had through a teacher or through the environment. As a researcher coming from Nigeria making the decision to come and study for a PhD in the UK is not something that's so straightforward. At the end of your degree in Nigeria, what made you want to come to the UK? Also, what was your approach to actually get a PhD in the UK? It's probably a challenging process to make this happen.

Stephen: I think everybody's trajectory is very unique, and so it is in my own specific case. I really didn't want to come to the UK particularly. The only thing I was concerned about was to do a PhD in a very good institution in terms of strength of research and academic, things like that. I was not so very particular about wanting to come to the UK. The only thing I did was to look for a number of places where I think they have good, strong research capacity.

By twist of fate, I eventually got an opportunity here in the UK. I think I got a couple of opportunities also somewhere in Australia and then in Italy. Then when I looked at the various opportunities, I went for the best one from my own judgment and upon the advice of one of my Chinese teachers then. There was nothing really particular about UK itself other than the institution in which I want to conduct the PhD itself.

Sandrine: You wanted to be in a place of excellence, but there are many such places in the world. How did you go about choosing the type of project or the type of field of chemistry to work in because there are so many possible projects and so many possible institutions to work?

Stephen: Thanks to the fact that I had a very clear sense of what I wanted to do immediately after I graduated from my master's degree program, which I did in China, I started searching for PhD opportunities in various countries of the world about nine months before I finished from my MSC degree program. There was this interesting website I stumbled upon findaphd.com. I saw various lists of interesting PhD research topics, and there was one out of these many lists that actually resonates strongly with me and which actually matches with my, shall I say, research experience background, which is like DNA research, construction of probe sensors, things like that.

I saw this amazing opportunity, and immediately I decided to contact the PI, the principle investigator, who now happens to be my present supervisor. He got interested in me because he could see my enthusiasm and also, robust academic profile. He was like, "Oh, yes", he's willing to assert me into his group. I should go ahead and submit an application for both admission and scholarship, and we'll see how best he can support me.

Sandrine: Stephen, can I ask you, why did it matter to you so much to do a PhD?

Stephen: To be honest, I like science as a field, as a career. I actually enjoy doing anything science. That has been a passion right from when I was in secondary school. I was like, it might be good, interesting to chart across a long that part. I was having the goal of becoming a scientist in the future. I think a PhD is the minimal requirement for one to actually start a position in the academia. To me, I see PhD as a tool because I actually made it to fulfill that ambition of becoming a scientist in the long run.

Sandrine: One of the things that you mentioned earlier is that you actually did a master's degree in China. Doing a master's degree in China, a PhD in the UK, both of these experiences represent incredibly challenging cultural context where you have to adapt coming from Nigeria and adapting to very different countries' culture, but also professional culture, which I'm sure are different from your country. What have you learned in that process of adapting to a very different context?

Stephen: That's a very wonderful question. I become a more globalized person in terms of thinking, in terms of interacting with people. I think I don't really feel like being boxed. I tend to now be able to interact with people from other cultures easily. Even though the contest in China and even in the UK are maybe wildly different, but I've been able to fit into any culture, any society with the greatest ease. That has shift my mentality to be able to be flexible in approaching issues, whether it is even science or even something non-sciency. I've been able to interact with people from diverse cultures, see how people think, whether it relates to science or even something completely outside of science.

That has shaped my personality because I can now see how even science has been done in different environment and how best I can approach even my science in a particular environment, even though there have been cultural shocks here and there, and one requires a very great sense of flexibility to be able to cope in different cultural scientific contexts. I think I feel like a global person now because I've been able to be in different environments and that has shaped my thinking to be a better person, a better scientist.

Sandrine: That's really interesting. It can't have been as easy as maybe just doing a PhD in your own country. What's been really challenging and I'm asking this question in the context of maybe getting people to be aware of some of these challenges when they're receiving PhD student from abroad, what's been really challenging in being a foreigner and working in a country or somebody from the outside? What challenges have you really faced that maybe people need to really pay attention to when they are recruiting PhD students or postdoctoral researchers from overseas?

Stephen: I think the biggest thing is for PIs to be able to accept the student has been equally as excellent as the native student. I won't blame any PI because a student is coming from a totally different climb and it's very difficult to actually ascertain if the student would eventually go on to do a very wonderful PhD research. I think there is always that panic as to whether a foreign student is good or not. I think if PIs can deal with those biases and just accept the student in good faith and just give them the benefit of the doubt, I think that will help the student a lot.

Just for the PIs to see them, if they merit the admission for instance, and they merit the scholarship, just let them be and let them prove themselves. In the cause of the research, that will get to be proven by the time the student now do excellent research or pieces of research work they will come to realize that, oh, I've actually made the best decision, but there is that bias in the beginning as to whether the student is going to do a good PhD, a great PhD in the long run or not. That's the only thing I think I suspect.

Sandrine: It's a very fair point and it's true that when you're used to the university courses that are in one country having a sense of the academic excellence of a bachelor or master student coming from somewhere else, it's hard to assess, but in a way, if you're prepared to explore actually what these people have got to bring and get this potential candidate on an equal footing with anybody else from the UK and pushing away these biases that you may have in term of the academic excellence. It's a really critical point in starting a relationship with a potential PhD student from a point of equity and openness.

Instead of having a sense that people may not be that good because they're coming from abroad. That's really, really important. You're coming to the end of your PhD, what are you now motivated to do in a year's time when you finish your PhD?

Stephen: I think I've settled that way long before I started my PhD. I know I'm going to be a scientist in the future, and this PhD is just a tool in my hand to bring that dream into reality. Basically, what I would do after the PhD is to seek further like a research position maybe in a Uni or an institute, a research institute to continue knowing my science, broaden my horizon on more technical skills. Maybe that might be in the form of a postdoc position that might be in the form of maybe even a lectureship, anything like that that will propel me further in the journey of becoming a scientist.

I think in the West people typically go on to land a postdoc position, but I think there are more opportunities in Africa to be honest to land a lectureship position, but things have not been set in stone as to whether I will carry on in the West or go back to Africa. I'm still contemplating what to do.

Sandrine: These are really hard decision. In your case, what is your goal in terms of being an African researcher in term of the way that you may want to contribute to science and research and the educational dimension of getting people to see science differently in your country?

Stephen: Yes, yes, yes, I think everything I eventually turn out to become as a scientist will impact very strongly on the science in Africa. That's what I'm doing basically to also understand the issues back home. If there is a way, I would like to contribute very strongly. I think it will first be in the form of radicalizing people's thinking as to why we need to build science in Africa. I think Africa has not really got into that stage on understanding why science is actually really important because it's not really something very popular. We are surrounded, for instance, in Africa by realities of religion, and people have not really gotten to that understanding yet.

The first thing I think will be to first radicalize people's thinking as to why we need serious science in Africa. Then I think it will be good to provide mentorship for the coming generation of youngsters and to also support their interest onto wanting to do science. I realize that it's been very difficult for me, for instance, to meet Africans that are deeply interested in science as I am. It's very difficult. You find many people just want to do something music, something entertainment, just get quick money, but it's very difficult for you to even meet people who are really, really interested in science.

I think mentorship also will be good to open people's eyes as to why we would need to build our capacity in terms of people wanting to go into that part of science and also to maybe work closely with government like officials to be in a position to advise or influence a decision in terms of science. What the government is making in terms of developing science. I think that also will be good because as the situation is now, there are no real infrastructures to do quality science in Africa. That springs from the part of the government. It's not really doing something encouraging in that sense. There is no meaningful funding coming from the part of the government to even steer people's interest.

I think there are actually many things to do, but whether we go back to Africa in the immediate, I don't think that's going to be a possibility because I think I've not come to develop myself enough to be in a position to influence decision. I think it might be good for me to spend some more time in the West, keep getting experiences here and there, and then I can think of going back to Africa maybe in the next 10, 15, 20 years. Then I think I can contribute something significant to the system.

Sandrine: It's interesting because in a way, it's one of the dilemma seeing your contribution in terms of the broader impact that you may make on science in your country and also the satisfaction of your own career as a scientist because obviously, the amount of funding to the research is very limited in Nigeria, I suppose, and the type of research and the type of experiments that you have the potential to do in Western countries is much broader.

How do you reconcile this tension between the desire to do great science for yourself, for your career, and even financially? If you're thinking at an individual level, you have the potential to have a very successful career overseas being a postdoc, a fellow, and so on, and at the same time, still the desire to want to contribute to your country. It's almost putting people in different direction and making decisions or knowing what's the right thing for your country for yourself. These are really, really hard choices.

Stephen: Yes, they are. I think it's quite dicey. What I think I can do, probably in the meantime, is to maybe seek a part-time or a research position back home. I know a couple of people who do that. They are maybe academics here in the UK or, wherever in the Western system. They also have part-time jobs with institution or in institutions in various African countries. I know people who travel every now and then to institutions back home to give back, even though they are academics here, maybe in the UK or in the US or wherever in the western system.

Actually, very recently I've been thinking along that line, maybe it's something I might eventually want to consider doing. There are universities that actually need people's [unintelligible 00:20:45] and if Africans in the diaspora can look back and see what, even in the meantime what minimal contribution they can do to better the system back home. I think that will be very encouraging. I'm thinking of maybe also contacting a few schools for maybe open positions in their faculties or department and see what I can do maybe is it adjunct lecture shift? Something like that and it's something I've been considering very recently.

Sandrine: That's an interesting point in a way being able to have still a research position we know in the West where you can do the type of experiments that you're interested in doing and at the same time find a way of still contributing to reshaping or shaping the research system in your country. That sounds like an interesting approach to explore.

You remember some previous conversation that we had when we first met where I had often concerns about the topics that are offered to PhD student coming from Africa, who come to the UK and work on research topics that are of interest of the supervisor of the PI in the West but are not necessarily topics that will be of broader interest in the country where these people coming from.

I always felt I don't know a tension that maybe supervisor ought to consider the dimension of the type of research that is needed in this country or the type of research that a student will be able to carry on or expand that is of use or can actually happen in their country. I don't know whether there is-- I don't know what the solution is, but in your experience, what's really the landscape to actually do research in Nigeria?

Stephen: Well, from casual discussions with your researchers back home, I think sometimes it can be very frustrating to be a scientist back in Africa because the support system is not just there in terms of research, infrastructure, equipment, you need to conduct quality research. They are not really there. Many people are getting frustrated. Many people are even tend to get out of the country to go to a better system, so to speak, where they can fulfill their research ambitions.

On the flip side, I know of people who are also surviving, but the majority of those who are survivors are people who have collaboration with friends, scientist friends in the West or in other parts of the world. At least, through that, they can get access to funding. I don't know of someone who is just by himself or herself in Africa without any affiliation to universities abroad, connection with academic researchers abroad that can say is doing something very significant because the environment is not just supportive.

It is been very frustrating for the bulk of them. Although there are people here and there trying to do quality research, but by the time you come to analyze such people, you realize that they actually, the ones that have collaborations with researchers abroad, I don't think there are enough indigenous funding bodies in Africa other than maybe very recently the African academy of sciences.

Outside of that, I don't think there are many funding bodies there can support research back home. It's been very frustrating for many researchers back home. Even very recently there was a situation in Nigeria, doctors are just getting out of the country enmass to other countries just to seek better professional environment. That has been the challenge so far.

Sandrine: Yes, no, that's certain. What do you think is really critical, for supervisors of PhD student, either from the global South or from Africa what is it that they really need to do to help these PhD students be really prepared to the realities of the context that they may go back to?

Stephen: Oh yes. That was a very brilliant question. I remember the first time I went to my supervisor's office, I told him of my reality, and thank goodness that he also understand the situation of things. He's been to Kenya before that was many years ago. He actually understand what is going on. Right from that very first day, he decided to give me his maximum support. Along the journey, I realize that he's been very supportive in terms of publication. I think I've had one publication already together with other colleagues, and now even we are thinking of another publication, which is going to be my first-order publication from my PhD work.

If there could be some support in terms of publication and also support for winning awards, winning grant fellowships, things like that, that can boost the students academic profile when academic and maybe now research profile, that would really help. Now you realize that even as a student from the so-called global South, you realize that you are actually competing even with colleagues from other parts of the world. For you to be able to secure some of this funding, you have to have robust academic and research profile, which is very difficult to build if one does not have a very supportive supervisor.

I think what many supervisors need to do is to actually understand the situations of the students from global South better and to see how best they can support them in terms of publication, support for grant application fellowships, things like that. These are things that I personally have enjoyed along the line.

Sandrine: Now I think that this idea of getting the supervisor to really understand the context where the student is coming from, I think is really key because you may have a supervisor who is very supportive of all of their students and may provide what they feel is the same type of support for everyone.

I don't know, for me, getting supervisor to really consider the specificity of a researcher coming from the global South and what's the context of research in the country that this student is coming from, and using that as an element to inform maybe the approach that they have to supervising or creating opportunities that maybe seems less relevant to others, but for that overseas researcher is absolutely key.

One that you mentioned is access to funding because I guess for a PhD student who is already funding, maybe by a research council in the UK, accessing independent funding maybe is less critical during the course of their PhD. It's something that they may want to get during their postdoc. Maybe for a global South researcher, an African researcher, maybe these opportunities are even more important. I don't know this is a really hard part of supervising and knowing what is really the added thing that is necessary.

Stephen: Yes. I think, yes, it is very difficult for a supervisors to understand the specific needs of a student from the global South, except there is that deliberate open conversation between the PI and the student himself or herself. I think student just need to be very sincere and open about their specific situations. I remember quite some time ago, one of my colleagues was discussing with my supervisor, oh, I want to submit this application, I want to do this and that. I just eavesdropped what they were saying.

It was then that it dawned on me that you also just need to be assertive, to voice out what you actually need from your PI because many of these people are busy with many things and you might think it's only your case they have in their head, which may not be the reality. I think the student just need to be very open, communicative and assertive in requesting for what he or she thinks he needs from the supervisor to up his or her situation.

That's what I've been doing over the course of my PhD. Once I sense that I need to go for this opportunity or that opportunity, I make sure I discuss with my supervisor, and to my surprise, he has always been giving me his very best support. I don't think any good supervisor would not want to support their student, I don't think, although we have some rare cases where a supervisor may not be very supportive. I think that's the exception rather than the norm. The student just need to be very open and communicative, let his PI know their very specific needs, and then things can be taken from there.

Sandrine: During the course of your PhD, you will have had lots of different experiences, but if you're reflecting on all the experiences that you've had, whether it's professional or in terms of your experience of science, what do you think has been the most significant in the way that maybe now it's shaped the way that you're thinking about science or the way you're thinking about yourself as a scientist, as a research professional?

Stephen: It's almost that sense of freedom to be able to confront a scientific problem by myself, although under the supervision of my boss. I so much like that sense of just being free to deal with a particular scientific problem under the guidance of a more experienced researcher. I think that for me has been very, very enjoyable. I get to design experiment myself, get to seek how best I can tackle the problems, and come up with methodologies, and then eventually results. That has been very, very memorable, inspiring for me personally. I don't get to be told what to do, per se. I get to develop that sense of independence as a researcher.

I just like that rhythm of working. It's strongly resonating with my personality because I like to figure way out to do things. I so much like that as a PhD student who is intending towards becoming a more independent researcher. I've been given that freedom. For instance, nobody needs to tell me, "You must be in the lab by this particular time" or, "You must leave the lab by this particular time." I get to sometimes even do the bulk of my reading at home, and then I go to the lab to experiment things and see how things would work out in the lab.

I so much like that freedom that is given to researchers. Nobody tells you really what you need to do, you be creative by yourself. It helps my person as a scientist. Also, because I think I have a very understanding supervisor, I've been able to also dab into many things even in the course of my PhD research. For instance, I've been able to take on leadership, roles, responsibilities within, for instance, an international chemistry organization, which is, International Younger Chemists Network. I've been given that freedom to also develop my leadership skills, which not so many PhD student gets to own in the course of their PhD research.

I've done many other things even including science communication. I've been able to communicate science to secondary school pupils here in the UK and even just getting a job outside of the Uni, doing something totally not related to science, even going to maybe a chef. I've been able to lay my hands on many things that relates to science or even things that are totally tangential to science itself.

I so much like that sense of freedom to explore and then after the whole PhD experience itself, I can then sit down and pinpoint the very, maybe top things, top three things I actually want to do afterwards. I realized that many student just get to do research, research and research alone, and they don't broaden their horizon, they don't broaden their skill, they don't tend to even do anything other than just be in the lab 24/7, which I don't think eventually would go on to make a good researcher.

Sandrine: The PhD period should be this kind of exploration. What you're saying is that exploring beyond the confine of the PhD as well, in terms of all the professional experiences that you have or the volunteering experiences, are all part of building you as a person and as a professional. When I was still working at the University of Sheffield, some of the conversation that we had when we first met was about how can UK institution create an environment and create opportunities for researchers from the global South to be better prepared to the context that they're going back to.

When I still worked at Sheffield, one of the things that we were trying to do together was initiate this network of researchers from the global South. That was our way of trying to do something about it. What do you think that needs to continue in that area so that researchers who come to the UK or to other Western country, the experience that they have is really enriched in a way that is really based on their context of what it's going to be like when they go back home. What is it that isn't done yet, or what is it that needs to be done more so that people are really, really well-prepared to tackle the massive challenges of being researchers in a global South country?

Stephen: I think everything should be intentional and structured in terms of providing answers to the questions, student from the global South might have meeting their specific needs. That might be done by going through maybe the students' union and expressing their feelings in terms of what they think they need to better support them in the course of their research even while in the UK. They might want to form perhaps a community. I know of schools like Harvard, there they have Association of Black doctoral and postdoctoral students, something like that, to better support Black researchers.

I think such wisdom from such initiative can actually be borrowed and actually be adopted into this very instance. They might want to do something like that, speak to maybe their student union and tender their needs for maybe a community of students from the global South to be formed, having regular meetings, discussions, things like that on how they might get better supported. Things like that will really, really help.

This, of course, could be done, especially by the more experienced student, student that have been in the system for maybe a number of years, maybe students in the second, third or fourth year. They can put such an initiative in place so that the future generation of students from the global South can profit from the thing. There might be then needs to be more deliberate in terms of wanting that to be done.

Sandrine: If you're thinking about maybe master's students in Nigeria and other African country, what advice would you give them to be well-prepared to go abroad and do a PhD? If you were going to give them some advice about ways of thinking about this experience of the PhD abroad or ways of approaching, creating the opportunities to do a PhD abroad, what would you tell them?

Stephen: Basically, it's for them to first commit themselves to excellence. I think excellence is a ticket to getting any of these opportunities wherever in the world. Let them keep committing themselves to excellence, and also let them have a very clear sense of what they actually need from the PhD itself. It's one to be bright academically, it's another thing to actually be motivated, passionate about the PhD research itself.

Let them know what exactly they want to use the PhD for because as I said, initially, I actually see this PHD as a tool of me realizing my ambition of becoming a scientist in the future. Let them know specifically what actually they want to use the PhD for, not just romancing the idea of traveling abroad, even though many people want to do so. Let them have that clear sense.

Also, they should choose a research topic that is global in its application, in its impact. Let them choose a topic that is very global, that can fit into any contest in the world because there is this issue of you never actually know where you're actually going to settle down in so you must do a research topic that is needed in any environment, be it in the UK, in Africa, in the US, in Canada, anywhere.

For instance, the PhD topic I'm doing, I think is globally relevant now. I'm working on cancer research, and cancer is now the second-largest cause of death worldwide. Anywhere in the world, there is increasing cases of cancer deaths and that makes the result itself well-received in any contest. They might want to look into those things. I think the rest of it will follow.

Sandrine: That's really important is, yes, choosing a topic that opens other door instead of closing them. One of my last question, Stephen, if you reflect on all the choices that you've made in your career so far, if you had to start again, would you do something differently? Would you make different decision? If you had the wisdom that you now have in term of your choices, what would you do?

Stephen: Well, to be honest, I don't know if I would want to do anything different because at every step of the journey, I think I've always have good markers of the decisions I made, things I look into before making a particular decision for instance, but I think maybe I will have enjoyed myself more and just to take things as they come because I think I've been very strongly focused on the science itself.

I would now want to explore even more outside of the science itself. I know science it's very time-consuming, but I would even want to explore more about other things because these I've come to realize that it's actually for a lifetime the size of the career itself. I would want to explore many other things along the way, not just strongly focused solely on the science itself.

Sandrine: Yes. Giving yourself permission to do other things, but because they are also fueling joy and energy is important. The balance is always hard to create.

Stephen: Yes. It's very very hard actually, especially during this COVID times is very very demanding because you want to produce some quality work, at the same time, you find it difficult to balance other things because the life of a scientist is just very sacrificial. You are looking for solutions for humanity. Sometimes you just have to pour all of yourself into what you're doing. For instance, it's not very easy to come by cancer drugs. These things we do in the lab, they are very very difficult. Sometimes you never actually can tell if you are-- You know you are not doing the wrong thing, but then how best can you do things differently? Sometimes it's quite challenging.

Sandrine: Stephen, we reaching the end of our conversation and I'm really appreciative of you taking the time to talk to me. Is there a question that I haven't asked that you feel is something that you really would like to share with other researchers from the expenses that you've had so far?

Stephen: Yes. Maybe there is these popular question I get to be asked, which is what is my experience as a Black student in the west? People just want to get that sense of being a Black student walking in a society that is predominantly White, to see how my experience so far has been. To answer that question I think its been wonderful all the way long. I think it's really has to do with your composure, your expression of yourself.

Many people have not really interacted with Black students, especially Black African students before, and you might want to change their wrong assumption that they have long conceived by you showing up yourself as a mentally bright person as well. Let them know what you're capable of doing. Let them know that, yes, for you to have been admitted, you must be a bright student. Always show them your good side, sell yourself more. Then people tend to gradually change their wrong perception of maybe Black student whether Black Americans, Black British, or Black Africans.

Yes, just be assertive. If you are admitted, you are in the system, it means you are actually excellent to them. Along the line, you get to meet trusted people. You realize that actually it's all just based on biases and wrong perceptions and actually, there is nothing more to it. Over the course of the years of my PhD, I've come to meet many amazing friends even the White British, Black British, and the likes. I realized that it's just all in the head and there is nothing actually more to it but you can change people's perception of the Black race by you showing up the wisdom, the genius in you.

Sandrine: That's a really lovely word to finish on. I think that's for many supervisor and for the research system also becoming very mindful of how we interact with others and giving people a space to be who they are in the way that they are as well, and working hard on fighting the assumption that maybe, we are all making in one way or another on other people.

Well, Stephen, it's really really lovely talking to you. I know that you are in the last stretch of your PhD. I wish you really the very best in the final experimental work and the final collaboration that you will have. Also, best of luck in choosing the next step in your career, which I'm sure will be very exciting and successful.

Stephen: Yes. Thanks so much, Dr. Sandrine for having me on this podcast. I think it's been very very interesting speaking to you.

Sandrine: Thank you. Thank you.

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