Araceli is Founder and CEO of Qureca, a company that offers support to individuals and businesses in the quantum field. She has experience in both the academic and industrial world. She has created a space in-between the two to bridge gaps in understanding, communication, and conversations in quantum.
Our conversation will get you to think about:
More about her company: https://qureca.com/
More about my own work as a coach, facilitator and trainer: https://tesselledevelopment.com/
Araceli is Founder and CEO of Qureca, a company that offers support to individuals and businesses in the quantum field. She has experience in both the academic and industrial world. She has created a space in-between the two to bridge gaps in understanding, communication, and conversations in quantum.
Our conversation will get you to think about:
More about her company: https://qureca.com/
More about my own work as a coach, facilitator and trainer: https://tesselledevelopment.com/
Warning- getting a perfect transcript is hard. This transcript may have mistakes. Be kind to us by accepting these potential errors. I hope that the transcript is helpful to some of you! Apologies in advances for any mistakes in the transcript.
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Sandrine Soubes: Let's get started.
[music]
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone, wherever you are. I am Sandrine Soubes, your host on the podcast Research Lives and Culture. Today, I have the pleasure to have with me Dr. Araceli Venegas-Gomez, who is-- No, that's not the way you say your name.
[laughter]
Dr. Araceli Venegas-Gomez: Araceli. Araceli. Think of the word carrot. Carrot is ra-
Sandrine: Carrot.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes, so Araceli. Araceli.
Sandrine: Araceli.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes, that's perfect.
Sandrine: Araceli. Okay, a Venegas, do you pronounce the S? Venegas-Gomez.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes. Gomez.
Sandrine: Araceli Venegas-Gomez.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Perfect. Yes.
Sandrine: Gomez. Okay.
[laughter]
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: I was like if I let you say, Araceli, then people will call me that and so, no.
Sandrine: No, don't worry because my name also is often not said very well by people. Let's start again. A real, real pleasure to have you on the podcast. You're a researcher but you're also an entrepreneur and I think your pass very quickly from research into entrepreneurship is a really interesting one, which I think many of our listeners will really get a lot of value of. Araceli, can you tell us how you started your professional life because you didn't actually start as a researcher, you started as an engineer.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Thanks, Sandrine. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes, actually I'm an aerospace engineer, and as such, I ended up working for Airbus in Germany, actually, so I moved there. I was working for airframe design for helicopters and by chances, I ended up more in the direction of management. I got over more and more responsibility at bigger projects. More in the direction of research and development projects, more of working with academia actually.
At one point, I wanted to learn more about how the company works. Let's say, I wanted to have a better overview of how the whole company works because when you are in the industry in such a big company, you work in a department, you have your little world where you focus on but you don't have the whole overview of what is going on. I moved into another department and I did what was called resource management. I was working for the whole R&D for the whole Airbus Helicopters where we were trying to think about the resources and the workload that was going to be taking place depending on the innovation and new projects coming in for the company. You will see that this links with what I'm doing right now.
The thing is that during that time, it seems that I didn't have enough having a full-time job that I wanted to learn more about physics. I was doing a master's in medical physics, why not? During those studies, I ended up with magnetic resonance imaging and learning about that, and everything at the atomic scale, and quantum. Truth be told, even before I moved to Germany to start my job, I wanted to study physics. I was always passionate about that. As an engineer, you learn a lot about physics, but I wanted to learn more about the fundamentals.
It was then at that time, some years later, where I realized that I really wanted to learn more about quantum and I wanted to learn more about the mathematics of quantum. I asked myself the biggest question that I think for everyone thinking about their careers, "What do I want to do with my life?" I don't know if it was the crisis of 3030, or what but the answer at that point was really I wanted to do a PhD in quantum physics. It was a big thing because I was an engineer, I was in the industry so what I started to do, I applied for PhDs around the world. I got a lot of rejection. People were telling me, "You are an engineer, you don't know anything about physics. Oh, but come on the mathematics that you need for this, you have no idea about. You are not able to work in a lab." I got really a lot of rejection. I went to interviews and I realized that it was not really welcoming but I didn't give up.
Actually, it was thanks to an online course with someone with a university in the US that I got in touch with the professor there. The professor put me in touch with a professor that was moving from the US to the UK, and that Professor after months of talking by email invited me to an interview here in Glasgow, and he offered me the opportunity to change my life. It was absolutely not easy. It took years until that move could actually be done, but, well, yes, I moved from Germany to Glasgow, and that's how I started in academia. I did one year master's and then my PhD in quantum simulation.
Sandrine: It's really fascinating because it's a very, very unusual path compared to so many people. What I find fascinating from what you're saying is that the element of resilience in terms of having the desire to do something, and the opportunity is not necessarily put on a plate for you because often people move quite quickly. Some people move quickly from a bachelor, or master's to a PhD, and actually spending years finding a way of making it work and accessing an opportunity is not a story that we hear very often. Also, this idea of using the network and creating a network and how people open doors for themselves. It's really, really interesting.
One of the questions that I had for you was how did you go about choosing who to work with, but in a way, it opened through this network. Here the question could be, how did you know that this professor was the right one to be working with?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: It was really he gave me the chance to come here to be in Glasgow, to spend time in the group with the people there. He told me this, "You need to experience what you want because you're saying I want to do a PhD, but do you know what that really means? You need to be immersed in that environment to be sure that that's what you want." I think that's amazing because as you said, how many times do people have the opportunity to actually go and say, "That will be my job. It's what I want?"
When I moved to Germany, I didn't have this opportunity. I moved to Germany without knowing where the company was located. I didn't know the people. It was just over the phone. Now that I look back, and you're right, it's quite a risk. Sometimes we're just taking these risks without knowing what is going on. I think the fact that he brought me that opportunity to really sit down with them, that was really good. Also because he wanted to have the chance to evaluate from both sides for me, and also for him because it was at risk as well, for him to say, "I'm going to hire this person, but I don't know how good this person could be because she's not present and she doesn't have this experience.
He said, "I haven't seen any person who is as motivated as you to do a PhD in physics. I cannot say no."
Sandrine: That sounds like the right approach to recruit-- Again, from your point of view, but also from his point of view of experiencing working together, really fascinating. Obviously, being an engineer and then doing a PhD in physics, it's an extremely male-dominated field. What was your own experience of being a researcher in a discipline that's basically male-dominated?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Can I tell you a little bit more about that Sandrine, even earlier when I was an engineer? In aerospace when I moved to Madrid to study aerospace engineering, we were 10% of women. For me, it's the way it is. I don't really think that there was any issue with it. If there are less women it's because these women didn't want to study this it's fine. Then I had always a big group of friends and 80% were males. That was normal for me. Then when I moved to Germany in my first job, we were I think two women in the whole department. Again, it was like 10%.
It was normal for me. I started to realize that if there was a task to be done, I had to show that I could do that task. I had a lot of things against showing that I could do it. It was not just that I was a woman, it was the fact that I was not German, that I was an engineer because if you're a woman and you're working in something that is not technical, it's different. I was also inexperienced. I was young. I had everything against me to be able to demonstrate that I could do something. I
remember talking to a guy that he was my age and I told him, "I have the feeling that if we're doing something, if you do it, everything is okay and I have to do it twice to be able to show that it's okay." That was the first time that I was realizing that there was something different in the way that everything worked for women and men in that environment. Then it was the first time that I came across a women's network. I don't remember the name, but there was something that they created there at Airbus and I was part of it but I didn't like some of the things that I saw there because I think that what we were for years and years women have been fighting for the same rights and equality.
I had the feeling that it was going too much pro-women. I was like, "If we are doing that, we are doing the same that men have been doing for years and years." What we want is really that we are on the same level really, it's 50/50 the women and men in our society. Then I stopped that, and I stopped thinking about it. Then when I moved to academia, the first thing that was surprising for me when I was looking at the undergrads of people studying at the university, it was like 50% were women. There were so many students, I was like," That's amazing. So many women studying physics." Then you look at the PhD and then you see that there were not so many PhDs that were women.
I actually want to omics that I have to mention here. When I tell you that I came here to Glasgow for an interview, during those days, everybody was welcoming because my biggest fear was again to be rejected, that people were going to say, "You are an engineer, you cannot do this," but actually everybody was super welcoming. I was really happy. It was a woman who came to me and said, "Why in the hell do you want to do a PhD? You have a 9:00 to 5:00 job. Why are you coming to academia?" That was really-- It resonated a lot because why was it so negative? I didn't have a 9:00 to 5:00 job.
Sandrine: Were upset about the question?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes. Because first of all, I didn't have a 9:00 to 5:00 job. I was waking up very early in the morning and coming back really late. Second, because she was a woman. I don't know. I was like, "Why is she saying these?"
Sandrine: in a way, what you would have wanted her to say is like, "Well done you starting this PhD. Welcome on board," and something like that.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Correct. That was just a comment on them. Everything was really good and I had a very good friendship with this person, so no problem, but that was just that comment at that time. Then when I moved here, I joined another woman-- I don't remember the name, but it was Women in Physics. I wanted to show coming from a male-dominated environment in aerospace engineering, I could bring that experience into physics, but then it was the first time that I was actually sitting with women who were thinking that there was a big issue on the fact that you are a woman in a male-dominated world. A big, big issue.
That opened my eyes because I never saw that women faced so many issues and had so many problems that were affecting their mental health. I heard people saying the same comments that maybe professors say and it really hurt them. I heard those comments but I didn't take that into account, it was not important. I started to realize that there was an issue because a lot of women, actually, these comments, these experiences, they hinder them, and sometimes they don't go into the path that maybe they would like to go because of these, which was amazing to realize.
Sandrine: In some ways, it's like you're not even aware of the biases that are, and what's in the way, you internalize the culture in your professional environment, and you're blind to actually the barriers that may be put in the way through some of the comments and so on.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Correct. Diversity is something I think the UK is very well positioned because they are doing a lot about diversity, let's say. I'm trying to learn physics, coming from a nonfundamental physics background. I wanted to give to society the same. I did a lot of outreach and I was doing a lot of activities where I could explain to the general public what we were doing in physics. One of the things that I was doing was going to school to show children, in general, that it was possible to study engineering, to study physics, and not just being a woman studying physics, but really it's like, there is this opportunity. remember I went to school and I had to give this talk to seven-year-olds, nine-year-olds, and 13-year-olds or something like that.
There were three different stages. I was always asking. "Who wants to be an engineer? Who wants to be a physicist?" A lot of girls when they were 7 to 10 years old. Then you go to teenagers and they start to maybe not be so sure anymore. That's something that you read about and you say, "Why is this happening?" It's really true. It's like a lot of girls, they want to be scientists when they are young, and at one point in time, they just decide that they don't want to do that. Of course, there's a lot of research about why that is happening, but it was the first time that I was realizing that. I'm saying a lot of things here, but I just wanted to give you the whole overview of how I saw these.
Then in 2018, when they were still launch of the different quantum initiatives, I was part of the gender group for the European Quantum Blockchain, and there again, we were addressing all these issues about-- Not the fact that there are too less women in physics in general, it's the fact that they are disappearing. It's like you have this 50/50% in undergrads, but there is a point where there are not so many PhDs, there are less postdocs, and at one point there are almost no professors. There were no female professors when I started in my university, and now I think there is one and now they are hiring the second female professor.
Sandrine: It's funny because actually having 50/50 at an undergraduate level is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure that many physics departments do not have that. One of the things that you said a little bit earlier that when you worked in industry that you had a sense of having to almost deliver or do a better job than your male colleagues, something that I've heard many times and in a way, I have always seen why is that? Is there something to do with confidence? Are we actually expected to deliver better than male colleagues, or is it just that we've internalized that we're not really meant to be there because there are so few of us?
Why did you have a sense that you needed to do a better job in some ways?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: That's a good question. I don't know. I don't think I can answer that. It was just a feeling, but it never stopped me. I wanted to do something. Imagine I told you all these things. I was young, not a German, an engineer, and everything against, and I had to go to talk to people that maybe they were with 30 years of experience and I had to tell them what to do. That was when I realized that the only way to do that is not just like I need you to pause or I need to tell you what to do. It's like, we need to be human, we need to understand the other person, and that's how communication and just being able to understand who is the audience became so important.
It was just a feeling. It was something really interesting to realize that it was there. Hopefully, it's not the same for everyone, but you asked me about how was it with my supervisor. My supervisor was always really supportive and every time that there was an issue that we wanted to discuss these things, he was really supportive in that and bring in ideas. He was really, really good. He was showing me some research where it shows what to do to be able to think when you are organizing a conference, how to think more about bringing more women speakers, because at the time that you want to organize a conference, we don't know the reason, but you always start thinking about male scientists and things like that. Everything was really good in that matter.
I think in general, what I really realized was the fact that something that we had in these discussions within the physics department is that sometimes when you apply for a job, at the end of the job, it says, "Female encouraged to apply," or, "Women encouraged to apply," or something like that. A lot of women have found these really encouraging. They saw that reading these in the job was telling them, "Yes, you can apply." Whereas I thought that that was really negative.
I was like, "I don't want to apply for a job that is telling me that because I have the feeling that if I get selected, it's because of the wrong reasons."
Sandrine: It's funny because many years ago, we had organized for international women's day debate about what's the positive discrimination in terms of having a 50/50 shortlist for jobs, and so on, making a point that obviously, you can't decide you're just going to recruit a woman that that's not legal, but you can decide that you are going to have a 50/50 shortlist. The debates was all over the place because for some people, they just said, "We can't do that because it's positive discrimination."
While for me, I will say, "So be it. You have a 50/50 shortlist, what's the problem with that?" It's interesting because I've never heard anyone say that just the fact that it's mentioned could be a put-off for some women while for others, it's encouraging. At the end of the day, we can't assume anything and everybody will react differently. What do you think that your supervisor during your PhD did that was particularly helpful in supporting you to transition in your career as a researcher?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: I think he was a good listener. Again, I think to be a good manager, where at least in an academic environment, or in industry, you need to be good with people. I think if you can listen to people and understand what their needs are, but again, they're going to be completely different one from the other, then you can be a good manager. I think he was good in understanding that, yes, I was very good at some things like I wanted to have a project plan, and I had another way of organizing my workload that of course, students didn't have. At the same time, I lacked a lot of fundamental physics background, and he knew that I had to catch up.
I think yes, he was really supportive and a good listener. He could understand where I was standing in comparison with the others.
Sandrine: Do you think that he did something different in terms of his own awareness that not many women are in physics in the research environment? Were the things that you felt that he needed maybe to change his approach in terms of giving you opportunities? Or, obviously, it's maybe hard to assess, but did you ever sense that I don't know that he was doing something different special, that really was an enabler for you?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: I think not because I was a woman, but mainly because I was coming from another field. I think he encouraged the fact that I wanted to change careers and coming from another field, I think that was something that he encouraged. As I told you, before, a lot of people rejected that. I can tell you very bad comments that I got from certain supervisors. Yes, I think that's the thing he did differently. He was really saying, "You're coming from another field, I want to encourage that motivation. I'm going to give this opportunity to you because of that.
Sandrine: You come across as somebody who has an inner belief and sort of an inner confidence that maybe others do not have, where does this come from? Because we all need to have our own champions. Who's been your champion?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Oh, that's a really good question, Sandrine. Actually, that's one of the things that I was thinking a lot during these years because a lot of people mentioned this need of having role models. I didn't have anyone in my family, I didn't know any engineers. My uncle, he had a PhD in chemistry, and he had a lot of science books. I always went, and I was stealing those books when I was a kid. I think that was helping a lot.
I think the fact that every time that I wanted to do something that was scientific, that I wanted to learn something that maybe was completely different from other children in my environment, my parents were encouraging that. If I wanted to have a microscope instead of a doll for Christmas, my parents were encouraging that and I think that supportive environment, again, was really key to say, "You want to do this, we help you, you can do it."
Sandrine: In some ways, building an inner belief of validating your interest in science from an early age and making you really have a deep feeling of that's what interests me, and it's good, and it's valued from a very early age.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes.
Sandrine: When we are PhD students, a lot of opportunities are put in our way, and making a decision on where to put your time or energy and choosing opportunities is really hard. What were the opportunities that you took that were offered to you, or that you took that really influence your transition into entrepreneurship?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: You probably know that when you do a PhD, a lot of people love to ask that question, "What are you going to do after your PhD?" That's terrifying, right? It's like, you're starting and you're probably like, "I don't know, I'm going to become a professor." Then the truth comes along, and, "I don't want to see research anywhere in my life." Then once you are towards the end you find, "This is actually quite interesting. Perhaps I go into it to being a researcher." For me, I realized during the PhD, that I was not going to become a researcher. Because the way research works, the skills that you need for that are not the skills that I have.
I knew that because coming from an industry I knew that I was a people person that I want wanted to have this overview, and working in research, something that you're really focused on something specific and you don't have this overview. For me, it was the fact that, since it was the beginning of people talking about quantum technologies as a business, it was an opportunity for me to be part of the development of that new market. I was involved in everything that I could.
I was going to all conferences and workshops. I was talking to people. A lot of networking, I was trying to be there, to be known in this community, but at the same time to understand how the community works. At the same time, again, I mentioned that I was doing research in a lot of outreach, and I wanted to showcase my research so I was involved in student chapters, I was organizing events. I was doing a lot of stuff because I think my feeling was that I needed to catch up so much because I was coming from a completely different environment that I just wanted to understand everything again, I wanted to have that overview.
That actually helped me to realize what I could do, and what I was good at. I was good to be in the middle. I like research, I like academia, but I'm not an academic. I like industry, I like business, but I didn't want to go back to work for a company. I was like, "What can I do? I'm in the middle." I didn't know what to do, I was thinking maybe that I could work for maybe the government for these quantum initiatives because they weren't doing that they were reaching academia and industry.
I actually went with these ideas to the optical society and they offered me a fellowship to pivot in my career, to actually create something new. That's how I created the company in 2019. I never thought that I would become an intrapreneur. I never thought that I could become a CEO or my own boss. I have been loving it since.
Sandrine: It was thanks to an initial sort of like entrepreneurship fellowship of sorts. Because these are quite unusual.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Yes, it's a fellowship that they give to people finishing the PhD, or recent graduates who would like to do something that if not going to research, and it's not going to work in industry. It's a new thing, new career, which is really good. Since then they have been giving these to people with really good ideas in the fields, things like policy, for example, or creating communities. Yes, so completely new ideas that are needed, but sometimes it's really hard because you fall in the middle, and you don't know how to start these things.
Sandrine: It was funding for you? Was it?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: It was like a bunch of money. It's like, "This is the money, this is what you want to do and how you do it is up to you." I got a very amazing group of mentors and advisors that helped me a lot and that I bother a lot asking questions. That's how I registered the company. The goals of the company haven't changed since I had these ideas a long time ago, is to create a common language. Again, everybody should understand when we are talking about quantum what we are doing. Again, it really depends on the audience.
We want to provide those resources that are needed. That goes back to when I was working in resource management that it was really like something that is coming, what is needed to make that happen? Now I'm working in something very similar, but instead of helicopters now is quantum technologies.
Sandrine: That's really amazing. What were the key thresholds in going from, "It's just me with my idea, okay, I've got this pile of money to actually make things happen." What were the really important moments in developing the concept, developing the business, having partners, and all that?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Very good questions, Sandrine. Sometimes I don't even think those things either, I don't have the time. Again, I wanted to create something to bridge the gaps between the stakeholders, and the community. I wanted to do something that has a lot to do with career development because I changed my career. That I thought that it was really important that people have this kind of, "Sit down and think, what do you want to do with your life. If you want to go into quantum, we are here to help you." That was the main message.
Key moments were the fact that I could have this network of mentors that I could ask anytime that I had any need or that I needed advice. My partner who helped me to think about the name of the company to think about how to put things together that was really, really helpful. Then it was really the fact that I could organize this world tour. I literally went around the room, visiting different countries to talk to people in quantum. That was kind of testing my ideas.
I was like, "I'm doing these, what do you think?" Everybody was like, "That's what we need." That reassured that what I wanted to do made sense in the community. That was really really good. That was really good that we could do it because it was just October 2019 before the pandemic hit. It was really like I'm talking to the community, I asked them what they need. I'm creating something according to those needs, and they're like, "Yes, that's very good." That's key. Every time that I'm talking to someone like, "We are doing this." They're like, "That's very good. That's fantastic. "That's really very reassuring.
Sandrine: That's really amazing. What do you think has been your learning point in this? Because sometimes we have a good idea, but actually making it work is incredibly challenging.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: To build a platform. Again, you have something in your brain and you want to put it into software, I'm talking to the developers, and trying to make that a reality was a huge step, and that was really the first six months that that was it. Then the fact that actually, we built something that it was going to be a platform to make virtual meetings. Of course, we didn't know that the pandemic was coming, so that was a joke.
It's like we spend time building something that of course is much worse than what we have right now in terms of all the virtual platforms, so that was a lesson learned there, but the other thing was that the fact that it doesn't matter where I am because I'm working with people all over the world, it shows me that I just need the computer. I just need the fact that I can talk to anyone, and of course, I missed the 3D interaction that I was having before because I was continuously traveling.
I was going to all events and I was talking to people face to face. The fact that that happened before and that the network was already built was of course much better because what I imagine is if I had to start one year later where all this network I have to build it through virtually that would be much harder, but I think everything was well timed, but there are also some things that of course didn't work, but that's fine.
Sandrine: What's been the most challenging in some ways because again when you've worked within a company and then after within the university sector, and then suddenly you're the CEO and it's all in your hands to make things happen or to make decisions, and sometimes things work and sometimes they don't work. What have you found really the most challenging and what do you think has been really your learning from these challenges?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: I think I have changed in a way that before if I was talking to someone and I had the feeling that it was not working, maybe the person was saying that's very good, but it's not good timing. Or let's discuss it again in six months. I was thinking that, I don't know, maybe you can say personally, but, "Oh my God this is not working," I was having really terrible thoughts about how to improve that. Now, I have learned that I'm talking to someone, this is what we are offering. This is me, and I'm not scared anymore to show this is what we are doing because so far it worked.
We have projects, people are happy, so I'm going and saying it's not anymore we want to do. "We are going to do this, we are doing this, and if it's okay for you now that we move ahead, it's fine. If it's in six months, that's also fine." I think that's gives really a peace of mind. I'm much down towards saying, "This is business, and sometimes it goes like this, sometimes you need to wait, but you cannot take this like-- It's not a race." I think in some ways some people say that, and it's actually true.
Sandrine: I guess it's having the confidence that what you're doing is serving the needs of the community, of the research community, and accepting that people will be ready to take what you have to offer or not, and it's not up to you in some ways the choices that they make. As long as you feel, "Okay, we know these needs are there and we are meeting these needs, it's up to you to do something about it to access what we have." What do you think really needs to change in an organization so that diverse professional can thrive?
If we go back to the challenge of being a woman in engineering, but also being a woman in business, being a foreigner in business and as a CEO, now when you start working with people, when you start employing people it'll also be your responsibility to support people from diverse ethnicities, diverse genders, diverse ways of working to succeed in the role that they have. Going from your own experience in your early career to now maybe moving to your own responsibility towards others, what do you think really matters in an organization, whether it's academia or industry where really people, whoever they are, whatever their ways of working that we create an environment where really they can make the most of what they have to offer?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: When I started with the company, I had to start hiring people, and I just wanted the best people and I didn't care who they were, but it was a point, I don't know when it was, but I had the feeling that we were all women, can you imagine? I was like, "We have to do something." It was working, but it's like we need a diverse environment. We need to have more men in the company because it's not good, as I said, in one direction or the other.
Then I was trying to think about exactly what you mentioned and things like, "What is my experience? How can I implement that into what I'm doing now?" Now we're actually growing a lot. The team is changing right now, so in a couple of weeks we are going to change our website where we show the new team is coming, new people, but really very, very diverse, and I want to show that, but it's true. I'm interviewing people every day, not only in my role as the QURECA manager, but it's really in the resourcing role that I have. I have to interview people for all the roles, and I need to have the feeling that there is good communication with that person.
I need to have the feeling that the person can do the job, that can understand the job, and that the person is motivated, and you see it. You really see whether the person is the right one or not for the job. If the person happens to be a woman or a person of color, it doesn't matter really because you just want that person because you have the feeling that that's the right person for the job, and everybody should think this way. It's true that we live in a world where it's not as easy to say, "I am this person and I would to work anywhere."
Because sometimes depending on where you were born or your nationality, you cannot work in some countries and Brexit has not made things easier in that direction. It's really about being as well in the right place at the right moment because I was from Spain moving to Germany and I did my interview on the phone. That was crazy and I got hired because of it was a good conversation, but if you are talking to someone and that person happened to be in a specific country, and even maybe the connection is not good, that person loses that chance.
I think being realistic when we are talking to some people that maybe you wouldn't expect to want to present the same conversation that you will have with someone that is in your own country and that speaks the same language or anything. If that will be possible with all managers when they're hiring, that will be helping along, but it's a very tricky question. Again, if we have a diverse panel to be able to assess, that will help as well, and I've seen this over and over again.
We were in a panel where there were I think three men and we were two women assessing, and we had to rank the people for that position, and I think we the two women we ranked the only woman who was as a candidate higher than all the other men, and thanks that we were there that woman passed to the second phase. I was fully sure that if we were not there and it was a male-dominated panel, that woman wouldn't have passed to the second phase. We are learning a lot, but there's still a lot to be done.
Sandrine: When I used to work in my previous role, I've organized a lot of workshops on commercialization or getting PhDs and postdocs to consider knowledge transfer activities and how to interact with industry and so on, and often just the term of commercialization or the idea of working in the private sector, so many PhD students are very resistant, very reluctant, and this notion of becoming an entrepreneur, many people feel well, that doesn't really belong to the register of what I think I can do.
What would you say to somebody how to approach the possibilities of such a path in a way to open doors? It doesn't mean that everybody doesn't have to become an entrepreneur, but in a way of thinking about it, that opens doors and open possibilities instead of scaring ourselves of such a path.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: I think they should be aware of the possibilities. Sometimes I think we are in the era of information where you have information about anything, but I think sometimes helpful information is not as available and sometimes, again, you mentioned this, they are not just aware, they don't know that they could do these things. We do a lot of career events. During my PhD, I organized events where we were bringing people from different backgrounds, people with PHDs that were working now in publishing, or things like that to showcase that those were viable career paths for them. That those were possibilities. If you don't know about those possibilities, what can you do?
I think always giving those examples. I always ask them, "What do you want to do?" Some, they know how to answer that. Some others have no idea. It's important to assess what you would like to do, what you'll do good. I always say you could say that you want to be a painter, but if you don't know how to paint, then you're going to be hungry. It's really, assess what you're good at. This is what I think it happened in my career. There was a point that I realized that I cannot be a researcher, but I really like this quantum stuff. What can I do with my skills that I can support this, in that time, in this new ecosystem? It's really about asking those questions to yourself.
Again, I'm sitting every week with different people from all over the world, sometimes because there is a specific job where they could fit but sometimes it's just to have a half an hour conversation where they're asking me, "What do you think? Could I do this? Do you think that I could do this in this country? Do you think that my CV is good enough? Do you think that--" I'm doing this for free.
Sandrine: To wrap up, it would be really interesting to hear about what are really the words of wisdom that you will give yourself early on in your career with all the experiences that you've had. What would you tell your young self?
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: That's a very tricky question. I would love to be able to answer right away. I guess I would teach myself to be patient. I think you only get patient with age. Oh my God. I'm saying this, but it's true. I think I was really impatient every time I thought if something was not working I thought that it was personal. I was like, "Oh my God, that was the end of the world and It's not." Things will always find a way to fix themselves. I will tell myself, "You can. You can do whatever you want, be patient because things take time." I think probably those two things. I probably wouldn't listen to myself, but I would tell that to my young people.
Sandrine: To your young self. Thank you. It's been really, lovely talking to you, and the space that you inhabit in-between space, between industry and academia, and also supporting people to really see where they fit in that industry is really interesting. I'm sure, that you are helping a lot of people find the right path in the quantum world. It's really brilliant.
Dr. Venegas-Gomez: Thank you, Sandrine.
[00:43:31] [END OF AUDIO]