Dr Joby Cole is an Infectious Disease and Acute Medicine Consultant for the National Health Services and an honorary lecturer at the University of Sheffield. He has held several clinical fellowships to enable him to undertake research alongside his clinical work. His current interest to give all patients the opportunity to get involved in clinical research projects as participation improves outcomes. He is also interested in contributing to novel ways of detecting microbial resistance that would allow fast identification of resistance and a faster approach to prescribing to right antibiotics to patients.
Life in research for clinical academics is not a straightforward path. With an initial clinical fellowship and then a Welcome trust fellowship to undertake a PhD, the entry route into research for Joby could have been streamlined. It was not to be, as the Covid pandemic took control of our daily lives. As an infectious disease and acute medicine consultant, the Covid period meant going back full time to the NHS on the battlefield of a Covid ward and having to pause some of the interesting research work Joby had started during his PhD.
As a clinician interested in both basic science and the application of research to clinical practice, Joby sees his role as being an important voice in influencing the direction of research projects that have the potential to contribute to medicine. Bringing in the bedside perspective to his basic science research colleagues and respecting others’ perspectives and skill set are his starting points in his collaborative approaches.
His experience has taught him that there is great value in experiencing being involved in research early on in your career as a clinician, and that getting involved as early as you can in your career makes transitions easier. Being a clinical academic often means being on the look-out for collaborations and funding where the limited time you have for research can be rewarded in a manageable way.
Dr Joby Cole is an Infectious Disease and Acute Medicine Consultant for the National Health Services and an honorary lecturer at the University of Sheffield. He has held several clinical fellowships to enable him to undertake research alongside his clinical work. His current interest to give all patients the opportunity to get involved in clinical research projects as participation improves outcomes. He is also interested in contributing to novel ways of detecting microbial resistance that would allow fast identification of resistance and a faster approach to prescribing to right antibiotics to patients.
Life in research for clinical academics is not a straightforward path. With an initial clinical fellowship and then a Welcome trust fellowship to undertake a PhD, the entry route into research for Joby could have been streamlined. It was not to be, as the Covid pandemic took control of our daily lives. As an infectious disease and acute medicine consultant, the Covid period meant going back full time to the NHS on the battlefield of a Covid ward and having to pause some of the interesting research work Joby had started during his PhD.
As a clinician interested in both basic science and the application of research to clinical practice, Joby sees his role as being an important voice in influencing the direction of research projects that have the potential to contribute to medicine. Bringing in the bedside perspective to his basic science research colleagues and respecting others’ perspectives and skill set are his starting points in his collaborative approaches.
His experience has taught him that there is great value in experiencing being involved in research early on in your career as a clinician, and that getting involved as early as you can in your career makes transitions easier. Being a clinical academic often means being on the look-out for collaborations and funding where the limited time you have for research can be rewarded in a manageable way.
Thank you very much, Roby, for being here today. So in this podcast called Research Lives and Cultures, I tend to mostly interview academics, so people who are straight academics from lots of different disciplines. And I'm running a series of interviews this year with people who also work in clinical practice. it's really great to, to have you, uh, with me today.
Joby Cole:My name is Joby Cole. I'm an, infectious diseases and acute medicine consultants, uh, working in Sheffield teaching hospitals. And I also hold an honorary, uh, lecture position, uh, with the University of Sheffield in the clinical infection research group, um, formerly infection, immunity and cardiovascular diseases. Um, And I spend currently most of my time employed by the NHS doing clinical work, both in the infectious disease department and the acute medicine unit. And I spend a proportion of my time doing clinical research, uh, Looking at with a fairly portfolio, um, career at the moment, lots of different studies that I do in different areas, including some basic research within the university as well.
Sandrine Soubes:If I may, could we take a step back? Because I mean, I'm a biologist and it feels like it's hard enough, you know, to be, to be, to do a PhD and then get funding for research, but you're, you're doing a PhD. two, two job in one. So, you know, you, you're a doctor and, and also you do research. So can you take us back to the, the type of medical training that you have? And then what was the starting point of actually getting involved in research? So,
Joby Cole:Sure. Um, I mean, I, I grew up in a family where, uh, my father was an academic and so I was always. Uh, very interested in, in research and, um, and mainly basic research, uh, and I was encouraged to pursue a career in, uh, in clinical medicine. So I did an undergraduate in the University of Sheffield. And during that time, I have the opportunity to spend, uh, a special study project with um, Professor Rob Reed, uh, who was an infectious disease specialist who worked on Neisseria meningitidis, and that really sparked my interest in translating what I was seeing in clinical practice to, um, the bench sides and then being able to make, uh, discoveries of, of, you know, new mechanisms within disease processes and, and hopefully, you know, help, um, future generations. And following that, I then pursued, uh, my standard clinical medicine training. So I graduated and went on to do, uh, in the UK, we call them foundation jobs where you do two years of sort of being a very junior doctor. And then I did core medical training for another two years after that, slightly more senior junior doctor. And then I, uh, applied for an, uh, academic clinical fellowship. during which I was fortunate to have a nine month period of, um, sort of free time to do research, really. And at that point, uh, my initial mentor, so Rob Reed left and I found a different, um, mentor, so professor David Dockrell, who, uh, had an interest in streptococcus pneumoniae. And we, together with, uh, other basic science, um, scientists, a professor, um, Mark Dickman in chemical and biological engineering, we set up a project looking at epigenetics and the impact of pneumococcal disease on this, and I then was applied for a, um, Wellcome Trust clinical fellowship. And I, uh, which I was successful at, and then I undertook a three year PhD program studying epigenetic modifications in monocyte derived macrophages, uh, and, and learned a number of key basic science skills, predominantly mass spectrometry, but also cell culture and so on. Um, and then following successful defense of my thesis, I then applied for an NIHR clinical lectureship, uh, and, uh, completed my higher specialist training as an infectious disease, um, specialist. And in 2020, uh, the pandemic broke. There was a need for, uh, increased clinical, uh, specialists with infectious disease skill sets, and I was offered an position as a consultant in the NHS to work full-time on a covid ward. Uh, and so I moved sideways into that. And that's kind of where I've been since, although the COVID wards now shut because we have less cases fortunately, and I've gone back to a more traditional clinical medicine approach. And during that time, I've sought out opportunities to be involved in clinical research since then. So we've had a number of different small basic science projects based around COVID, but also Um, have participated in, uh, various vaccine studies, uh, since then as well.
Sandrine Soubes:so may I ask you, so initially when you, um, you know, when you started your, your PhD, because again, as a, you know, as a, as a medic, medical, uh, medical school student, you know, you, you're not necessarily exposed to as much, uh, sort of basic research as, as, you know, uh, biology, uh, students are. So, what was the approach that you had in actually choosing the topic to do your PhD on? Because obviously it's, it's a, it's a critical moment. It doesn't necessarily define the topics that you work on later on, but these, I mean, you said that the, the person that you did an undergraduate project with, you went on to work with them for, for, if I understood that correctly for your PhD. So this moment is really, really early experience. They, they really shaped. with great impact, what comes next? So for you, what was the, in a way, the stimulus of wanting to carry on doing that work?
Joby Cole:So I think I've always been interested in clinical research and I've always been fascinated by infectious disease. Uh, you know, it's one of, if not the main. driver of, uh, health problems in, in, you know, in the world. And it's also the one that we can influence the most, uh, and where research has already proven to play a pivotal role. Um, most recently illustrated by COVID, by you know, a novel diagnostic being deployed, new treatments being discovered through research and, and, you know, development of a vaccine that's been efficacious. So I, I've always found infection really interesting. Um, and in my early career, it was the ability to take samples from patients and translate that into findings that then could. Kind of influence future development. And the work that Rob was doing was really novel and really exciting. And also he gave me the opportunity as a, you know, fairly green, you know, naive medical student to be allowed to come in, into his lab. And, and he was very encouraging. So I think a lot of it was about having the right mentor. to encourage me, uh, to, to, to pursue a research interest, um, when he left, uh, he had planted the seed of working on epigenetics and, and infectious disease in, in my brain. And I then spent quite a long time talking to all of the remaining academics in Sheffield until I found the right fit. I knew that I wanted to do the kind of mass spectrometry project and Mark Dickman, who is a. basic scientist was more than happy to have a, uh, you know, a doctor or a clinician come to his lab and, and learn techniques there. And I think I was very motivated and self driven to learn what was a very different skillset to what we've been taught at medical school. Um, I also did, I grew up in, in France and we had, uh, opportunities to spend time in different labs there. So I'd been exposed to kind of basic science and, and labs, uh, for a very long time prior to coming to the medical school. Um, although I didn't do any formal projects in a lot of them, it was more about just spending time in the lab and seeing what scientists got up to. So I sort of knew the basic science world before I came there. I think the thing that was key in choosing the projects I did was being passionate about infectious disease and also about having mentors that were encouraging and supportive of the science I wanted to do.
Sandrine Soubes:And so in, in this period of transition, then after, after your, your PhD, when it, when the time came to write your own project, one of the things that you describe is, you know, reaching out to lots of people and, and seeing what the, you know, what's the right fit. It's really. really interesting because that's one of, that's one of the challenge for a lot of, uh, clinicians who are, who want to, you know, carry on with research past the PhD is that they're not necessarily in a context where they are exposed, or they don't necessarily have a lot of time to go to, you know, research conferences and so on. So in a way it takes a lot of reaching out individually to lots of people to see, okay, who are the people that I really enjoy conversation with who can really bring something or get my thinking, you know, in a new direction.
Joby Cole:Yeah, for sure. I mean, just for clarity, that was before my PhD. So when I was writing my PhD proposal up, I had to find a new supervisors and, um, and then go and apply for the funding to support my own PhD project. So, um, slightly unusual in that that doesn't happen quite in that way anymore. Um, and that, that meant that I had a very specific project in mind and I was Uh, I really found the right players to support that. Um, By and large, I found that almost all the academics I've ever spoken to have had lots of time to speak to people who are interested in science and, um, and although they're all busy, they will all give you the time, usually, you know, in their busy lives to spend time and talk about projects with you. Some will be more encouraging than others, and some will be more helpful than others. Um, but, uh, part of it's about making that first step. Um, and I'm just sending out lots of emails and setting up meetings. I was fortunate in my academic clinical fellowship that I had time in the week to go and meet people to have these initial meetings because as a clinician the challenge is that usually you're working nine to five and well people usually want to meet during nine to five and not out of those hours. You know, having that freedom, having an understanding with, um, you know, supportive clinical supervisors as well as an ACF that let me go and have these meetings with different people to, to, to really explore the options out there, um, having a good understanding of what lab. Um, you know, skills were, and, and I, and I was relatively competent in the lab meant that people were happy to let me kind of do different experiments and get preliminary data, which was useful. And I think also speaking to some of my peers, so other PIs and so on that would say, Oh, you should go and talk to this person or that person about these projects was, was, um, you know, instrumental really.
Sandrine Soubes:What's been the most challenging for you then, you know, once you got that first, uh, that's first, you know, the fellowship that was enabling you to set up your research group, because obviously it's the same at the time. You have a dual, you know, a dual position with, you know, clinical work and research work. So you're becoming a PI, setting up a research team, and you still had some clinical work
Joby Cole:The challenges have changed over time, um, the challenge that we're all faced with is time, you know, there is only 24 hours in a day and some of that's got to be spent sleeping and some of that's got to be spent looking after children or, you know, doing other things and then dividing up your time between the clinical and the academic time, the time to write papers, the time to do experiments. Um, to find funding, et cetera. Those are all, that's probably the biggest challenge. Uh, uh, you have to be very organized and, um, quite protective of your time as well. Uh, clinical work never fits in the nine to five and always will try and encroach on the other space. And so part of it is about saying no to projects or no to other things so that you can focus on what's important. And I think we're all at varying degrees, uh, successful at doing that. Um, I'm mindful that I've taken on too much recently, um, because I've said yes to too many things, uh, but that will change over time as well. Uh, I'll tell you, dealing with rejection is always challenging because papers get submitted and they get rejected. Funding applications get rejected. when yours get rejected, that's always difficult, but that's part of science. And, there's also an element of uncertainty in academia in that, you live for short periods of time between grants or between funding calls. whereas clinical jobs tend to have a bit more permanence to them. We've had a collaboration, working on, a different project, for the last couple of years now, which was really hampered by, lack of access to the lab because COVID, and, reopening labs and so on. but we're finally getting a bit more traction. We've attracted a couple of PhD students. We're starting to, get more data and more results. And, and so I think it's really only been in the last couple of years, really, that we can say we've got, kind of in it's in infancy, uh, research group, I guess.
Sandrine Soubes:I mean, and I suppose also from what you were describing earlier of having gone back into the clinic during COVID, also this, there isn't a streamlined path forward in terms of building a research group. One of the things that I'm interested in, something that I've done some lots of interviews recently about early career clinical academic and One of the things that often comes is, the lack of clarity about the approach to get funding. And I suppose as a clinical academic, the collaboration that you may be able to establish with, you know, more established PIs and, you know, people who already have, you know, work, you know, research group, which are really established is really important. So in your case. As you sort of, you know, were building a space for yourself in terms of the research that you wanted to do, what were the sort of the key relationship that you built in terms of this really, you know, where you may be a co investigator or you may be, you know, helping on a project, but that's all part of really building momentum for the work that you want to do.
Joby Cole:yeah. I think, um, you know, having having I had two challenges. One was the COVID pandemic, which made life difficult for everyone and where I felt compelled to go back to the clinic and work as an infectious disease clinician, because I felt that's what I've done most of my training in and probably where I could have the biggest impact for, you know, society and my patients. The second challenge I had is that my project supervisor for my, PhD left, through my PhD, which also meant that, group I was working with, the postdocs, et cetera, all of that sort of disappeared midway through my fellowship and, and during my clinical, lectureship. So actually there was no group towards the end, which made, made things very difficult. Um, And so subsequently, what I've done is really sort out all of the different kind of research opportunities that were available to me. And, and I've been very fortunate in the, um, Professor Sarah Rowland Jones, who's, uh, one of our key clinical academics in, in the infectious diseases group was very supportive of me. And. Um, was keen to help us kind of continue to grow and, and, and build, uh, clinical research. Um, I also was able to attract a couple of small grants. So pump priming funding from, uh, NIHR capital grants, but also from the BRC. Which I've then used to develop, um, this new kind of research group and, and do little bits of research on the side, very much as a, from a supervisor role, rather than being able to be in the lab at the moment, um, but the research is still getting going and then I've sought out other opportunities. So whenever there's a funding call that I think I can fit into, I try and write a grant and put it into that when there's. um, opportunities to collaborate with other groups. So I've worked with a number of different PIs that are established within the Department of Infection Immunity and Cardiovascular Disease and, and I've acquired kind of clinical samples for them to do other science, so very much more of a collaborative. side of things, which means that we continue to acquire, you know, produce papers and we acquire data. And then that enhances, you know, my position enabling me to apply for further funding and so on.
Sandrine Soubes:What do you think is really the biggest challenge for a clinician in terms of the collaborate, you know, collaboration with, you know, sort of basic researchers? Because again, you know, the, I don't know, maybe, you know, the end point that you have in your mind of the, you know, the type of impact that you want in terms of the research that you do, maybe. It may be different from what, a basic scientist may have in mind, or maybe not, because I mean, one of the challenges, something that's appeared in some of these interviews I've done of early career academic is that what you get measured in the challenge in, in, in your academic progression, you know, what you are measured on, you know, as a clinician is different from what you are measured on, you know, as a, you know, as a, as a lecturer, and in a way, the balance of where you want to put your energy. Maybe it's not so straightforward. So in the decisions that you've made of where to put your energy, how have you balanced this thing of I'm putting energies this because that's the way that matters to me, not necessarily the work that is going to be well, perceived by the department and so on. One of the
Joby Cole:Yeah. I think that's really, that, that is very difficult. Um, I have always. You end up investing a lot of time in different projects, some of which never leave the ground. But in a sense, if, if you don't do that, you'll miss opportunities in my experience. And the Met. You know, the, the temptation for someone like me is to really focus on basic science, but actually I'm a very expensive basic scientist. And my skillset as a clinician is in the more translational side of things. So I have consciously tried to move towards more translational research where we, you know, rather than doing core mass spectrometry on, on basic science on, on basic cell samples, we're moved towards using. clinical samples, which are things that the, you know, my colleagues who aren't clinicians will struggle more to get access to, for example, or be able to develop. I think we're also in a unique position that we can see what the gaps are in clinical medicine and therefore Try and shape the direction of research to a certain extent by, for instance, focusing on antimicrobial resistance, because we see that that's a problem in clinical practice, and therefore we can, you know, energy and effort into into projects in that area by collaborating with people who might do the more mechanistic kind of research. cell biology side of things, but then might allow you to look at novel ways of detecting AMR or treating it. Um, if that answers your question. Yeah, I mean, I think we all have very different skill sets. I think that,
Sandrine Soubes:the collaboration between clinician and basic scientist if you reflect on, collaboration that you've had where you felt this interaction is really amazing and others where it feels much more sort of instrumental, what do you feel was important on your side in the way that you interacted with others that really meant that it could work.
Joby Cole:um, You know, the, the basic scientists are, are, uh, it, you know, it's really hard being a PI as a basic scientist, uh, attracting, you know, funding and getting through the academic hoops that, that one has to jump through. Um, and. Some, you know, and there are some frictions between them and clinicians, uh, who sometimes take the scientists for granted. And I think it's really important we acknowledge that we have different skill sets and different, um, niches of expertise and that the two are complementary, really. I mean, I was fortunate in that because I learned how to perform mass spectrometry, which is something that's, you know, fairly niche in itself, I gained a lot of respect within the field. Um, and therefore they accepted me as sort of one of their own, if you like. And likewise, I understand the challenges that they face to get. to that level of expertise. And therefore, you know, we have a lot of mutual respect. And unless you start from that, you know, place of mutual respect, uh, then, you know, you're never going to achieve anything particularly well, because one side will resent the other. I think it's also Useful to use other people's skill sets. You know, some people are fantastic in the lab. Some people are not as good in the lab and are really good at writing grants or coordinating projects or, or, or getting people to participate, you know, recruiting patients, for example. And I think it's, it's useful to use all of these different advantages and, and arrows that we have, or both strings that we have to our bows.
Sandrine Soubes:How do you feel that, you are being perceived within your role within the NHS in terms of this other job that you have in research? How is this perceived that you are, you have this dual professional identity?
Joby Cole:So I have very limited time in my job plan to do research. I think that my clinical colleagues see me as a full time clinician and my academic colleagues see me as a part time academic. And, and that's probably the reality. The frustrations that the clinicians have is that, they see academics as not being on the shop floor. And not being at the coalface of what is, an NHS and in a clinical service that's currently in Diane needs of extra help. However, if all the academics left and became clinicians, there'd be no one to do the research either. So, I think we both acknowledge that we have different roles, and I try and straddle the two like all clinical academics do. It, it often means that you do two full time jobs rather than two part time jobs or one full time job. And so I think that, pressures of time are always the challenge, really.
Sandrine Soubes:So how do you cope with that? why bother? What does it truly add to your life of having that the challenge of trying to have these two identity really, why bother?
Joby Cole:it's a really good question. Sometimes I ask myself that question, or well, often I do. Um, I think the exciting thing about science is that it's always evolving and that it's always new. And, you have, the ability to make a very small and, you know, usually it's a stepping stone increment into, humanity's knowledge. And. potentially help, uh, develop new treatments or, or better understanding or, or new vaccines that might save millions of lives rather than save the hundreds of lives you will do in the clinic. And so that opportunity for a bigger impact, I think is worth pursuing. I also think that if clinicians aren't involved in research, it's really hard to dictate the agenda. And it's hard to be part of that decision making process as to what we prioritize as being important. Uh, because otherwise people will do the science that they find exciting. But actually, if you can't put that into clinical practice, if it can't translate to better treatments, better outcomes, or better understanding, then blue sky science isn't necessarily, you know, useful for humanity. And I think that's why it's important that we do both. I also think that you don't have to do both all of the time, and that you can, you know, I've spent different proportions of time in different parts of my career doing more of one than the other. And I'm, you know, I feel like I'm transitioning back towards doing more clinical research, whereas before I was probably doing more clinical and before that doing more research. And that, that ebbs and flows a little bit according to, you know, how successful you've been at funding and what other challenges there are in life.
Sandrine Soubes:in this post COVID period where you're moving towards re energizing, the research element what is needed for you to feel the bounce of kind of throwing yourself back more into the research side of your professional life?
Joby Cole:As I said, dealing with rejection is always challenging. And so in the run into COVID, I had had a number of you know, grants rejected and papers and so on and In the last sort of year or so, I've had a number of papers accepted and, you know, been successful at securing funding and so on, and I think it's, you know, the success that begets further success. So that, and the, also the encouragement of, um, peers, so. You know, other clinical academics or, um, mentors like, um, professor Roland Jones, who, who really encourage you to carry on with this. I also think that, um, you'll only really stop being a clinical academic when you stop trying. And so if you just persevere, eventually something will, will come off. So a part of it is about just. Persevering, um, but you're right for some people, uh, actually it's more important to have the extra spare time or to, to have a slightly less complicated lifestyle.
Sandrine Soubes:So, I mean, in a way, it really takes sort of an inner drive to really want to contribute. That is really the fuel of working incredibly hard to make it happen. There needs to be really something, you know, I don't know, yeah, a sort of a fire in the belly, like I like to say, that's really keep you going.
Joby Cole:I think that's true. I think, there are certain advantages as well. You tend to have much more flexibility over your time of where you work, how you work. You get to go to amazing places, go to interesting conferences, hear exciting science and exciting, you know, developments and, in some, for some people you get to participate in, you know, steering groups and writing committees and things like that. And so if you want more of a influence at a national or a local level, then. Participating in research really is the only way forward in my mind. But there's nothing wrong with being a clinician who dedicates their lives to their patients. It's just a different career path.
Sandrine Soubes:One of the things that you've said several times, is this idea of really influencing in terms of policies and practices. So what's next for you in your current role in terms of that, that higher level of influence, whether it is at a, at a national, regional, you know, a trust level.
Joby Cole:For me personally, I aim to get back into the lab more and therefore, Secure further funding to liberate, to essentially buy back some of my clinical time, to allow me to develop more kind of my research interests in terms of, driving infectious disease policy, I'm. Part of the High Consequence Infectious Disease Network as a clinician and that's sort of where I see my role. It's a fairly niche thing to do. But that's probably where I'd have the most influence at a national level or certainly at a local level. And as I grow more senior and as that side of things develops, then, you know, that's where I'd expect to have more influence. I think I wouldn't overstate the policy bit. I think that's, that's quite, I'm probably a few years off from being able to influence.
Sandrine Soubes:But it's, uh, I mean, it's interesting. I was, I was running a leadership workshop last week with a group of new PIs. And, uh, so they, they, they work in a, in a different country and I was sharing with them. The UKRI, which is one of the big funder of research in the UK, sort of set a framework of leadership for the future leader fellow program that they have, and this idea of different levels of influence at, at a group, influencing positive research culture within your own group and then influencing, UK policies and influencing, globally at a different level. And often for new PIs, this idea of influencing globally feels very far fetched that whoa, I'm not there yet. But actually what was interesting in this cohort I was working with was that they, they had many of them had not even thought about that yet. And I, and I think that sort of projecting themselves into actually. What is my, the kind of contribution that can make in the long term? What was, we, we had really interesting contributions. So in your case, in the type of work that, um, that you do, if you were thinking, okay, 10 years time, what would be really exciting in term of the influence that you would want to have either, national, international level, what do you want to change in this world?
Joby Cole:To answer that question, there were, there were probably two things that I'd like to do achieve. One is I'd like to be in a position where all patients that get admitted to a hospital, regardless of their, condition. Are able to participate in clinical research that there's a clinical trial for something for everyone that they can be offered because we know that participation in clinical trials improves outcome, even if you're in the placebo arm, even if you're just in an observational study, you do better. And so if we can offer everyone a study. Then I think that's great. Um, but in able to do that, that means having people like me, who've got, you know, clinical academics who are prepared to be PIs. It means having fellows who are prepared to recruit patients. It there's quite a lot of infrastructure currently is maybe underdeveloped in the UK for that. And I think that's probably true globally. Also, I would like to see one of the, numbers of basic science projects I've got moved to, the bench side and to, to go from, in the lab to actually translational and, and change clinical practice. I mean, that, that would be the. lifetime goal, I guess,
Sandrine Soubes:Can you give us an example of one?
Joby Cole:We're looking at novel ways of detecting antimicrobial resistance using sequencing approaches, as opposed to conventional culture, in the microbiology lab. And so if you could bring that. To the clinical practice, whereby you give someone a, you know, 12, a four hour turnaround of this is the resistance profile of your organism. Here's the antibiotic you should use. Then that would have massive impact on antibiotic stewardship. So setting up the next clinical trial to do that and then moving forward, I think is the answer really.
Sandrine Soubes:Well, that sounds amazing. It's funny because I started my career working on, E. coli and, resistance, uh, also various mutation of E. coli. It takes me back to,, my early life as a biologist. I'm going to bring your conversation to a close, one of the things that I like to ask people on these interviews is, about, if they had to start all over again, what would they do differently? So in your case, and I asked this question in the sense of bringing, not, not necessarily, you know, you know, battering yourself in, in. term of, you know, I should have done this or I shouldn't have done that, but in terms of bringing some ease of making, you know, giving yourself some kindness on the journey to where we are.
Joby Cole:I, I've really enjoyed. basic science. And I think, uh, if I wanted to just be a basic scientist, uh, if I wanted to be a basic scientist, I think I wouldn't have done a medical degree and I would have started research much earlier. Um, there's something about Uh, doing a PhD or fighting kind of to get to the next stage and working incredibly hard, it's slightly easier, the younger you are. And so in a sense, doing it before you have children or before you have other pressures is, is, probably something that I would have done differently. So the answer is. I think the sooner and the earlier you can get involved into research as a clinician. The better because it starts you on a path earlier on and it makes life a little bit easier for a lot of the next steps. I think, never giving up is also important and persevering. And then, you know, I mean, it's always fun, right? So, and it's always interesting to discover new things. And that's why I think you'd have to keep doing it. So getting involved in research as early as possible. And, persevering are probably the two things that, I, well, I do differently or continue doing rather.
Sandrine Soubes:So is there, I mean, is there a question that I haven't asked that you've. I feel I should have asked or that, you know, if you're thinking about, um, a clinical, you know, early career clinical academic listening to our conversation, something that you would want to tell them again, not in term of giving specific advice, but in term of you reflecting on, you know, your own path, uh,
Joby Cole:Yeah. I think probably the one thing that I haven't done is changed institutions enough. and so although I did, work very briefly abroad, I think it's useful to go to different academic institutions, different labs to see how other people work and also to see what other opportunities there are around the world. Um, and so I think as a slightly difficult as a clinical academic, because the rules about working as a clinician in different countries are challenging, but certainly from a research perspective, going to different. Academic labs and learning techniques is I think, uh, you know, really crucial to spread yourself around a little bit and see what else there is. And surrounding yourself with good mentors and, and that, you know, people who are going to encourage you and foster you, uh, is, is important as well.
Sandrine Soubes:yeah, no, I would definitely agree with that. And I will finish our conversation again, asking a question that's going to sound weird, but. Just listen. What gives you joy in research?
Joby Cole:I think it's the collaboration with lots of different people from different walks of life with different backgrounds and, seeing, results that people have never seen before is seeing something new and novel that, you haven't seen before that might answer a little bit of, of, the mystery of the world around us. And I think that's what motivates me to do it.
Sandrine Soubes:That's brilliant. Thank you very, very much for giving me the time today for this conversation. Good luck with, your next, research funding application and, and building your team as you go back into, building your research group. so much.
Joby Cole:Thank you very much for having me.
Sandrine Soubes:You're very welcome.