10- Julianna Kayaga Sseremba on challenging organisational practices

Julianna Kayaga- Sseremba or Kaya is an organisational psychologist working as a consultant and  is also a Founding Partner at Strategic Engagement Limited. Kaya is planning to do a PhD very soon, but she is already involved in the NEMRA researcher network. She shares with her us some of her experiences working with businesses where she is tackling organisational practices that may hinder the participation of women. Many practices in businesses and academia remain unchallenged. Our lack of courage in tackling them head on maintains the status quo that limits the progression of diversity in the workforce. Well Kaya, does not lack courage and she is tackling these issues through her consultancy work. Her perspective as an aspiring early career researcher can inspire us to reflect on all the layers of practices that we do not question in our organisations; these continue to limit the engagement of those who are different from us. It is not because a practice works for you that it will for others. Removing the blinkers of your own experiences, and considering what others may need is what I hope this conversation will inspire you to do.

Kaya can be found on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julianna-kayaga-sseremba-2b724877/

You can read her book: https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Mrs-James-ENJOYING-SINGLEHOOD-ebook/dp/B08B45CGK9

Here is a video about the launch of her book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vPIrdISkww

If you want to know more about NEMRA: http://nemraafrica.org/

My name is Dr Sandrine Soubes. I am a coach, trainer and facilitator for the research environment. Do not hesitate to get in touch if you have questions, comments, suggestions, or if you have an idea for an amazing contributor. 

Reach me at: sandrine@tesselledevelopment.com

If you want to be updated each time I publish a podcast, you can join my mailing list and I will share with you the Podcast link and the shownotes. Get the Podcast insights directly into your mailbox by joining my mailing list here

You can find all of my Podcast episodes on my website: www.tesselledevelopment.com/podcast

You can get this episode shownotes here on the website.

Transcript

Episode 10- Julianna Kayaga-Sseremba 

Sandrine: Welcome to research lives and culture, the Podcast that offers conversations about the research environment. Each week, I interview someone who works or has previously worked in research. We discuss about the approach they have taken to navigate their career, the critical decisions they have made, the joys they have had in their work and the challenges that they have faced.

I ask questions about what a supportive research environment really looks like and about the actions that we can take to help the research culture empower people to thrive.

My name is Dr Sandrine Soubes, I am a coach, facilitator and trainer for the research environment and your host on this podcast

I am committed to ease the path through research careers by sharing stories of researchers’ lives.

 In this episode of the podcast. I've invited a guest who doesn't come from the research world or not yet; I have the pleasure to have with me, Juliana, Kayaga-Ssremba and Kaya as she calls sherself is an Organizational psychologist who works in the business world as a consultant. And she is planning to do a PhD very soon. 

But I felt that her perspective was an interesting one on the podcast.  Like several of my other guests, she's also involved in this NEMRA network, which is a network of researchers in Uganda, which is really trying to support researchers develop  their professional competencies and build communities of researchers across the country. 

I think Kaya's perspective is an interesting one. In term of the work that she has done in businesses in supporting the work on diversity.  She's written a book.  And her book is looking at the perspective of women in Ugandan society. 

The expectations that are placed on them.  It's interesting to think about how the role of women in academia and in the business world is dealt with differently in different countries. I hope that you will find the conversation with Kenya really fascinating. And that it inspires you to consider the type of work that you can do. 

Either in your research environment or in other professional environment. In the way that you are developing practices that are supportive to lots of different people. Enjoy the conversation 

Sandrine: [00:02:41] Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, everyone.   I've been doing a series of podcast recordings with the number of people who are linked to the NEMRA network. So today with Kaya, and she's just told me before we started recording that she has a baby who is in the house.

if you hear some little baby chats, that's where it's coming from.  

I'm based in Sheffield in the UK. And it's really, really exciting to be talking to you all the way, to Uganda. So Kaya, can you tell me a little bit about your professional backgrounds, where you know, what you studied and the type of work that you're doing at the moment?

Kaya: [00:03:17] Thank you so much Sandrine. I'm very happy to be   hosted by you today. I am a professional organizational psychologist. I have studied a bachelor's degree in industrial psychology and also done my masters in organization psychology. I'm also a certified professional member of the international coaching Federation.

  I very much enjoy working with people through conversations. So, you see the trend of programs that I'm studying.  Currently I'm a partner at a management consulting firm, which is called strategic engagement limited. And this is focusing on providing businesses with solutions that are going to help them to grow.

And through people and through strategic directions.  Previous to that, I was the chief human resource officer in engineering solutions, which is an agricultural mechanization firm. And before that I was a chief human resource officer with a financial institution.   

Sandrine: [00:04:21] What sorts of writing did you do? 

 Kaya: [00:04:25] Well, in that particular book, it's really more about providing. Self-help context with particularly the journey from singlehood to marriage and in the context that I'm in, there's a lot of social pressure on that that creates a lot of mental health for people within the workspace.

And so was just trying to provide a different alternative about. You know, making your own choices and paving a path that can help you so that we can have more mentally stable people within the workspace and then have more productive organizations. 

Sandrine: [00:05:01] So what do you think is really the challenge for women in particular in Uganda, in term of going from degree to finding a professional space where they can flourish, because obviously there are lots of pressures in term of earning, enough.

For your family, balancing, having kids for women who have children and, the pressure of families, the expectations that are placed, on women, and then, becoming a professional and becoming a professional who can really flourish. What do you think are currently within your own country, the challenges that women are facing.

 Kaya: [00:05:37] Well, that's an interesting question, Sandrine.

And because that particular area is the reason why I was pushed actually to write this particular book, to just try to provide a push-back alternative to those, some of those constraints that are coming in in my context. So, the first one is the perception that marriage is the finality of somebody; that if you are not married, then you're not whole, and there is something lacking on you. And you've not yet reached a kind of actualisation in, in your life. And that pressure is, is reinforced by so many social practices and norms that people have to deal with every single day. And then you find that people are not going to prioritize.

Doing getting married for, at any church at any cost I've, I've interacted with so many young ladies that have stayed in very bad and abusive relationships, either physically or emotionally, just so that they can have the societal tick that, you know, They have a  a man or they're in a relationship in their lives and don't get me wrong.

I'm very much for people getting married, if that's the choice that they want, but they should do it on their terms and when they want to do it. So that, that particular brush out that is reinforced by the social norms is, is really a lot. The second area is the issue of  Pay equity. That's still a reality that we're dealing with here in terms of being able to negotiate for something that you're able to say is fair paid for the same skills and, and what you're going to do.

You'll still find people that are in the interview room that will ask you. Why are you asking for that money? You know, you don't have to take care of any family. You don't have to take care of anybody. So why do you want to ask for that money? I can understand where a guy needs that money. I need it because I deserve it.

And I'm bringing on board value and skills that are going to provide productivity, but this is not the way that pay is negotiated in some instances. And there are so many laws against that, but. There is the law, but then there's also the practice. Then you also find that for women, there are some people that actually are forbidden to work either by spouses or by their family members.

And. You would expect that in this time and era, that wouldn't be a reality, but unfortunately it still is. So there are so many people that have actually studied, but are sitting at home because this is what their husband desires and in our cultural context, That desire of the husband is very much supreme upon the choices that you have to make as a person within, as a person that is within the African context.

So, I think that's also gender impediment. Then there's a pursuit of further education, which is from the point either you're going to be too educated to be pursued by men, quote on quote. That is a societal comprehension. Not that it's a reality. And then, or maybe your personal pursuit of education is going to get into the hindrance of you pursuing a family life.

So, it's either, or there is very few states or instances where you are encouraged to pursue both and encouraged to say that you can have both situations. So, what the impediments are actually very many, so somebody to pursue professional growth here, they're really have to want it no matter what. Yeah.

Sandrine: [00:09:17] What you're saying is really fascinating because when we think about women going to university, it's just the starting point really, but also what comes next. There may be laws in place, but the practices are actually what makes things possible for people to progress or not.

So, in your own experience of having worked in different organizations, what do you think really makes the difference?   In the UK, I've run workshops for women to feel more empowered and resilient and to articulate better what they want and be more assertive.

But at the end of the day, you, even though if you, even, if you work with women, you know, how we change the environment and how we change the culture is really an essential element. So, so in the work that you've done in different organizations, what do you think makes the biggest difference in facilitating the career progression of   women?

Kaya: [00:10:14] I think one of the first things that has been very critical has been being able to sell the issue of objective selection of skills sets at the point of the recruitment process, especially with the senior leadership within the organizations, if the senior leadership understands and appreciates employment practices that helps them to.

Select the best resources to deliver the organizational objectives. Then there are biases towards gender or religion or tribe, whatever other biases that they may have brought with them to the recruitment process will be self-checked because they now understand how to actually do a proper recruitment process.

As an HR practitioner it has really been critical for me being able to. Explain the key best practices in recruitment practices and how they then help you to select the right person for the job, the right person for the organization, and then passing them on to the people that actually are actually going to  sit on, those recruitment panels, because as an HR practitioner, I'm a facilitator of the process, and you have the heads of the functions that are going to come in and select these people.

Those are the people that actually need to know what they need to do to get the right point to the place. So, you get to see that over time, you'll have less requests coming through of, I need this person to be specifically this gender or this age or this person. And then the conversation is moving more into, I need somebody that can deliver this kind of result within this kind of environment.

 I've been very blessed to work with so many organizations because I'm in the consulting space now. And you'll find maybe a client telling you, I specifically do not want to work with women who are within this age group, because that's a time when they are giving birth.

And you're like okay. Do you have children at your home since I've never kids? So you don't want to have. Somebody giving this opportunity to your wife, because she's going to give back. And so being able to tackle that issue, head on and say, let me drill it back home to you and your house because every person that is going to bring that conversation.

Usually has children, or usually has a wife. So you will find that there are very many women who will be like, Oh no,  I don't want to hire people that are female because of this. They've got family ties and they've got family obligations. And in our current cultural context, most of the issues of primary health care of children or even education care of children has been docketed onto the wife onto the woman.

So. Because you're aware of those scenarios, how do you then speak through to the person who is taking a decision? One of the things that we're doing also is coming up with induction programs that are very specific for women to help them at forseeing these are the challenges that you're working against.

Okay. You are a primary caregiver, you know, that. You know, if they call you at home and your child isn't well, you know that you're going to have to leave. So what do you now have to put in place to make sure that when you come to work, you show up, how do you go the extra mile to ensure that if I need the time off from my work, because of a personal emergency, my supervisor is more than willing to give it to me because I'm the person that always shows up. I'm the person that always delivers beyond expectations. I'm the one that is looking out for innovative ways to deliver project or at targets. So how do you become so value adding that you are able to get the buy in. of your supervisor to create an environment that is suitable for your ecosystem, because the ecosystem is a reality for you at the end of the day.

So being able to have those discussions during the induction processes, and then coming up with programs that can enable her to pursue soft development have also added so much value towards getting more women into the workspace. 

Sandrine: [00:14:24] it's interesting. Cause in what you're saying, in some ways there is also the problem that it feels like women have got to prove themselves even more. And there is that almost kind of something quite uncomfortable about it because it's, it feels like we asking them more than we may ask men in term of being given   the permission to be in the room. The question then is in what needs to change. So that organizational culture accept that, , we are all in the same boat and that men and women, , are all of value without asking more of the women to be permitted, to be in that space. 

Kaya: [00:15:05] I think one of the things that needs to be done is to stick to numbers.

And for example, we've worked on a project with  one of my previous workplaces where we're actually tracking productivity and  labor utilization and results from the different genders. And we actually came to realize that in the space that we're working in, we were actually getting more results from the female employees.

And we're now now trying to understand why is that and what are some of the characteristics that they bring to the workspace that make them actually deliver more. And we were working with a very young workforce and you'd find that these people that are going to go the extra mile, because they know they have so much stacked against them.

And just like you said, in terms of. Are we creating a space where we, the women need to seek permission to be present? How do we move out of that?  One of the things that I I'm part of is the girls for girls mentorship fraternity, and in this project, girls for girls it's first and foremost, to enable women in the workspace to appreciate.

Who they are and what they bring to the table. Because one of the things that we've seen is that so many women do not take up opportunities. Not because they're not extended to them, but because they don't put their hands up. So, starting from the inside, going out, being able to enable somebody to represent Sandrine, this is what you bring to the table.

 I am a remarkable facilitator, which is a program that I think Google is co-opting and lean in. So. I'm involved in so many programs that are going to ensure that people appreciate this is my unique factor that I've been going now as a person who is like a parent to a young child. I see myself and my business and my opportunities so much differently compared to before my baby came.

And so how do I take all these experiences, all this uniqueness and put them as a value addition towards. The people that I'm engaging with in the workspace. So that's the first thing. Being able to have the women giving themselves permission to show up and to take the opportunities. The second thing is to try to build a bridge the conversation around getting women more opportunities has.

At some point or for some instances created some kind of hostility of now take out all the opportunities from the men and give them all to the women. And then you get resistance, you know, from the men because they are also looking for opportunities. So how do you bridge the gap to understand that this is a space where all people have to thrive?

Based on what they can bring to the table. Because when you have that conversation, you start getting resistance. You begin to get collaboration. So that at the end of the day, the conversation around equality and equity in the workspace is not a female driven agenda. It's an organizational agenda to have the best resources within the organization in spite of gender.

But if it becomes a thing of. Me versus him then obviously, because I'm male, I've got to protect myself as well. So, getting into that conversation of how do we live with a ground into an objective assessment? That is what I think. 

Sandrine: [00:18:36] Yeah, no, that's fascinating. And the use of data is absolutely critical.to convince people of the difference that these things makes.

Can you share with us, you should see maybe that you've been involved in where you've really seen an organization really move the way they're thinking about the way they're recruiting people or the way they're assessing the impact of women. Do you have an example in mind that you could share with us?

Kaya: [00:19:04] An organisation that I've worked with and at the beginning of that engagement   the head of the organization used to make a joke and say, I think we need to put pills in the dispenser because there's so many young women and they're all pregnant.

All the time, every single time, and this was made in a joking manner, but I feel like behind the joke was a big frustration for him because.  One of the things that are being pushed now more is in terms of ratios, women to men in the organization. And so, I think the funding that they had was one that came with that kind of backing in terms of requirement of having.

Representation of women within the organization. So, getting to now have to balance the stakeholder expectations of women employees. Vis-a-vis the frustration of them not always being around because they are in the productive environment. Was a very interesting consent for him. So, this is one of the organizations where we actually looked into that, that the example of the data that I shared earlier to try to assess   how many times is this employee available to show up for the work productivity?

So, if you have a female that is employed, that is between the age of 20 to 40, you know, that. More likely than not, they are in their productive space and they are going to actually use that space to probably have children or not. That is their choice. So how much time are they available to come to work?

Let's say that because maybe they are pregnant, they will give you say 70% of time because of sick leave or visits or whatever in that time, what is the level of. Utilization or results. So that's can now move from tracking time as the matrix to move to tracking outputs as the metric. If I give you a target to deliver on this A, within this timeframe, if you're able to deliver for me, A, within a lesser timeframe, that's fantastic because then I know that.

This is something that you want to actually live on your own pay measure the output fastest time. Secondly, the second initiative that was done apart from that matrix was to now try to customize the employee value proposition to appreciate what are the unique things that people require for them to actually choose this employer as an employer of choice for them, that would make them comfortable and commit to the organization because it's no longer just about pay.

How am I able to choose you? Because you've chosen to think about me as an individual. So, then the initiative that was done was to try to customize the value proposition. And we sent out a small survey around what would be the three things that would be unique for you that could build a value proposition that is, you know, feasible for you.

And looking at that data, we realized that. Most of the people that were now young mothers or expecting mothers or mothers of more than one or two children. were always talking about flexibility because I've got to feed my child. I've got to take my child to school. I have parent-teacher days. There's huge traffic jam.

So, getting to the city and I'm going to leave my home at 5:00 AM, or I'm going to sit into a traffic jam for two hours just to make sure I get to work. So that issue of flexible work arrangement now came up very strongly. So. Being able to then say, okay, with this data, how do we provide flexible working arrangement that doesn't look like you're doing favoritism OK because you also have other people to manage other stakeholders within the organization.

So then being able to build into that and say ok within our workspace, you have the flexibility to work.  A few hours from home, but then you have to be able to deliver on your targets at the end of the day. That's one, secondly, to build trust between you and your supervisor, you always have to be in communication as much as possible.

So today, if at all, I'm not going to be present. Does my supervisor. know, because at some point just never used to show up to work and say, Oh yeah, but my child is sick. What'd you expect from me? So being able to know that it's a two-way street, you build trust by communicating and I build trust by accommodating.

So, then that helped us to see that. Not only the female employees tapped in to it. We also began to realize that even the male employees tapped into it for various reasons. Some of them was because of childcare. Some of them was because they have side businesses. Some of them was because they have other obligations that they had to take care of.

But because it was an open initiative to say, look, we appreciate that you have an ecosystem that needs you. Even though you're at work, we can accommodate and adjust you as long as you are always able to strap on your results that really brought some game-changer arrangements outside.  The other one was to see that we can now see that we do development programs and actively target female employees to take up opportunities for progress in management positions.

We used to give those opportunities, but it was open. You apply. If you want, if you don't apply, then that's your problem. But then taking the step further to engage the female employees, to understand these opportunities are there, you qualify, why aren't you applying? And then. Well out of those engagements, you begin to see that.

Okay. I realize that when I see the management team, sometimes there’re going to be here and work up to 10, eight, 10:00 PM. I cannot commit to doing that. So as such, I'm comfortable here, not because this is the best I can be, but because I'm not able to give, what I see is the requirement of the management position.

  Sandrine: [00:25:20] People may decide not to go further up the research ladder or, the professional ladder because they don't like what they see above them. They don't like the work culture that is in the next career stage. But facilitating these discussions with people at different stages to remove the limiting beliefs that people may have. In terms of applying for some of these programs is really, really important, really interesting. 

 Kaya: [00:25:48] And, and we really saw a game-changer coming out of, of that particular issue, because once you began to realize that, then you said, okay, how do we plan differently this management works, because for example, there are some things that we use to do that management meetings was always at 7:00 AM. Okay. Now, if the management meeting is at 7:00 AM, it means that I should have been in the workspace by six, six 45 or 50, just sitting in and then get ready to show up for the meeting at least five minutes before the meeting.

If the meeting's at 7:00 AM and I have childcare obligations. What time am I going to live home? What am I going to do with those obligations? Because that's the reality that I'm working with. So, because I cannot show up for that, then I cannot apply to put myself in that context because I know that I wouldn't be able to perform adequately.

So then having to discuss those adjustments at the management level and say, are we willing to make adjustments, in how we are practicing so that we can accommodate wellbeing, because even those who are showing up, they're showing up, but that's not the best way for them to actually show up at the workspace.

The meeting could be in the work day, you know, so just looking at the small practices that were being done within the management space, and then just having openness at that space to say, what are the things that are. Not the best for, you know, work-life integration that are happening, that we are doing as a management team, but we think we need to think through and change and then having, you know, somebody who is a C or who is very open to saying, okay, let's explore.

I need to have my management team not distracted with the day-to-day work. What are the other alternatives? That we can do to achieve that objective. So, focusing on, what am I trying to achieve with this practice rather than the practice itself was very grateful. It open-minded change and adjustment towards how we were doing management within the organization.

And out of that we were able to see more women studying to apply for management positions. And at some point, we actually had about 60% women on the management team, not because of the practices, but because they actually would be able to actually compete favorably, knowing that they would show up for the job.

Sandrine: [00:28:22] How are people are resisting? So, you may have a company that's very open minded in term of looking at their practices because when you change practices that helps women. You know, it helps everyone. Let's, let's be real. So, you know, w why would an organization resist, what do they gain from,  not reviewing their practices.  You say, a management meeting at seven o'clock in the morning, it's just ridiculous, how on earth, , where these practices put in place in, you know, in the first place. In the work that you've done with different companies, , What do you think really is  the resistance where you can't, shift  the practices of organizations that are just not prepared to review,  what they are doing well. And what reasons do they give you when they're not prepared to change these practices? 

Kaya: [00:29:12] I think Sandrine, that's a very interesting question. And we usually ask that question to our clients what's causing the resistance, but it just usually both down to that issue of change and change management is very critical in the work of an HR practitioner or in a work of the management consultant, because you're trying to help people to move from one way of working into another perceived more efficient and more effective world working. But you've got to move people from. What they're used to the habits that they've created and then make them appreciate what new habits such as trying to talk about or what new habits that they are generating amongst themselves. But there're afraid to take on because they seem undoable. So then being able to break down those barriers for them to appreciate this is where I want to go, but it seems impossible. What is making it seem impossible. And can I tackle those barriers one by one, and then I don't have to change to make the change today.

Everything I can change, small steps, the smaller things that I can adjust. Maybe I'm not going to say that we're going to change everything, but can we make a commitment to stop doing the changes. And so being able to break down the big change to small bite support changes, and starting from the small change, because it helps you create momentum towards accepting that, okay, I'm seeing the result of this small change.

Maybe I can try this moderate change. So, the biggest resistance really comes from. Fear of the unknown and the adjustment that I have to make to accommodate this unknown that I don't know. And for me, this was really the reason why I took up the professional  coaching program, so that I'm able to check out my personal biases from helping people, management teams, or, you know, because sometimes you can have that approval of the management team as a whole, then you have the resistance as individual department heads. So then being able to take yourself out of the situation and seeing what is this department head? What is this team experiencing?

What are the fears that they are dealing with too? You know, that are impending them from moving from A to B because honestly, Sandrine everybody wants to become better. That's the honest truth. Every organization wants to work more to deliver more on their objectives, every person in their team, if they are really wanting to work, they want to be better.

So. Why would they resist the opportunity to get better? So those are the underlying things that you now deal with from the coaching perspective. And this is where the biggest concern usually is.

Sandrine: [00:32:07] Can I can ask you maybe some of these management practices are really kind of best based on, you know the Western world way of doing business. And they have been probably, , used in a lot of African countries and it's not necessarily the default position that people had to work together.

 Do you think that's the case that's The default position in term of management is some ways of seeing the worlds through   Western lens that are kind of I've been accepted,  in Uganda and , in other African countries and now it's almost like say actually, you know, we can do things differently or is it not the case?

Kaya: [00:32:49] I think that contributes to it because a lot of the practices that are been done here have been adopted from the Western way. And the, maybe the missing link is not that the ways are bad. I think it's the lack of adaptability to the stage or the context within which these particular practices are being applied.

So, for example, if you look at    say a practice that is in the Western world, where you can have a stay at home, dad, it's literally almost impossible to have that here because the society does not. It actually admonishes it and says, this is a demasculinization process. Now, when you have that happening and in the culture, here women have to take care of the children primarily, you know?

So, in that context, when you are putting practices directly into this space, They don't match up. So I think that there's the issue of lack of adaptation of what we see from the developing economies and putting them into the context that we are in and then seeing, how can we adapt these two work for this particular economy?

I think that's the missing link. There's a lot of research around continuously trying to improve ways that management is being done, how employees are being handled, how the employee employment contracts are being tackled, but that openness to change and willingness to explore, isn't really not trickling as much here. So you'll find that there is this practice and it's going to be handed over to the next generation of leaders and that's how it's going to be taken on. So, it takes a huge step of courage and very big support from the CEO. to actually say we are going to look at how we're managing differently.

And even the CEO has to have the backing of the shareholders and the board. So, if the board does not have the exposure and openness towards change and new ways of looking at people from cost, to stakeholders, to participants who are going to push their organizational journey forward, then you're going to have a really huge problem to actually see new ways of doing management of people.

So, you have so many concepts that have been explored in the developing economy, but you have stuck ways being implemented here. I think the last one would be the issue of. The connectivity between research and industry here. And this is really a big gap because you'll find that in the developing economies, you'll see that a lot of the research that is being done by academia and universities is also very much linked into management consulting and also very much linked into industry, which isn't here.

So here you'll have the universities and academia. And then you have the industry. And so that lack of a bridge. In what I've seen and what I've observed in terms of the developing economy is that you find that you have. Say at Sheffield, you have research that is happening, but that research is hugely impacting how industry's working, which is not the same here. And so, you will find that you have researchers in academia that are doing great work and exploring interesting perspectives of how organizations should work.

But this is where it stops. I don't even think that 90% of the poor wine industry even read the publications of the board doing research here. So, you have great information, but not adopted or opted into how industry is working and that lack of linkage then really prevents progression and innovation within the workspace in how management should be done and how people should be co-opted into the web space.

 Sandrine: [00:36:57] I'm sure that lots of Western countries, there is also a gap between, the research that is done in an academic context and actually making use of that and the connectivity with organization.   So, I like to move the conversation slightly towards what you are considering at the moment. So you are exploring doing a PhD, doing research. And I like to know, why, because in some ways you are very established in the work that you do and you're working as a coach, organizational psychologists, a consultant it's kind of a comfortable space. So why moving into the uncomfortable space of doing research, where there is a lot of pain and suffering and challenges. So, what's drawing you to the dark side of the academic research world.

Kaya: [00:37:47] Well Sandrine and I think for me, the trigger is based on my last observation that I met; the lack of the linkages. And I've observed that in many instances, it's either you're in academia or you're in industry. And for me, I believe that that lack of a bridge is a huge hindrance for us in how we progress, how very many different things are done within our different countries.

And so given that now I'm fully established into the space of management consulting. I truly believe that the game changer for how our clients are going to work is to provide them empirically driven interventions and to be able to demonstrate for them practically, how do you implement this intervention and how does that intervention now going to impact your results?

Because this is what they are concerned about. My results you're talking about.    For example, right now I'm exploring the concept of job quality. And you want me to embracejob quality, but what does that have to do with my, you know, profitability at the end of the day? So then being able to provide that kind of bridge to say, how can we explore new ways, better ways of doing business.

And can we now have those better ways co-opted in the businesses that we are seeing. And can we see that impacting our economic performance, as a country? Are we able to then see that impacting our social economic space   as individuals within that country? So that's the area of interest.

How do I now acquire the skills that are going to enable the beginning of those kinds of bridges. And this is why I joined NEMRA because NEMRA is a community of researchers, but how do you create research to trickle it down into industry to be embraced, not as something of the dark side or something of the professors to actually be embraced.

And you have consultative conversations happening between academia, governance and industry to be the pathway of how do we now get more development happening? How do we actually embrace that? So, this is why my motivation for that. 

Sandrine: [00:40:03] So what have been your strategies in term of identifying a supervisor , an  institution? Because when we choose a PhD, obviously the relationship that we develop with the supervisor or the location where we choose to do a PhD, we have many choices to make, and we have lots of constraint as well with families and so on.

 Kaya: [00:40:22] I think that has really been a very tough journey for me as an early researcher.  First and foremost, because you get into this space of, you're not coming from the academia side and you have no clue what's happening.

And so one of the things that I've had to do is to look at the area that I would like to explore or to work with and see  how flexible is that for me? And then look at which universities have invested resources or have academia that are very passionate about that space. So, I'm very interested in organization psychology, employment practices, labor markets, and how these things can influence social economic development of countries.

So then I'm looking at which universities have interest in that which universities are doing research in those areas and which academia are actually moving away from just doing their research to publishing, but also engaging with industry, say, give talks or give consultative conversations with industry because then.

They won't find me very strange in terms of what I'm trying to pursue as, as an end goal.  Then also being able to have the time to put into it, to learn more about the potential supervisor, to appreciate what kind of research they've done to see, how does that then influence what areas they'll be willing to explore with you as a student.

And then maybe through the done research in a developing economy, do they have the curiosity to explore how that research works in a, not in a developing economy? Exactly and relate-ability. So those are some of the things that I've been considering. Now this year, given that I've got my baby, I'm now having a new spun in the wheel of considering looking for universities that would have the flexibility to accommodate my family as part of my journey in terms of, is it possible that I'm able to move with my child and the caretaker, or is it possible that I can be able to have  within the year time at the university and term back at home, you know, things, options. Okay. That could allow for me to have this journey without feeling like I'm having to choose either. Or so this is something that I have considered; the other one obviously is funding because I'm not able to actually meet the costs of a PhD program and all the costs related to it as an international student. So, the issue of considering is there a funding available for international students?

And is that funding able to be tapped into   lastly, in terms of reaching out to supervisors, I've actually realized that people who are in academia are so helpful and so ready to go.

And then they have so much that they're working on and dealing with. But I haven't reached out to any single person who hasn't gotten back to me either to say, look, this is this year. I'm not taking on any students. Right. Or I'm on a break doing writing a book or something, or your research is interesting.

Can I explore more or your research is interesting, but you should consider this school because they have a chair program that is suitable for that. So being able to have the courage to reach out to the people that.  You find interesting because usually the contracts are available on email or online.

So yeah, taking the courage to say, okay, I don't have a clue about what's going on. This person definitely is so much smarter in this space, but, you know, can I just show up and say, this is who I am is what I want you to explore. Are you willing to walk this journey with me?  

 Sandrine: [00:44:23] Lots of work to be done, to identify where and when. When are you aiming to starting? 

Kaya: [00:44:30] I'm aiming to start the academic year 2021 September.  By that time, my child would be one year old and more independent and yeah. The solutions that I will have for flexible education will be more cooptive than if I told he was younger.

So I'm targeting 20 21. And I I'm currently applying to universities and hoping that I will have someone that would take a chance on me and, and walk the journey. 

Sandrine: [00:45:02] Well, wishing you the best of luck with that. That's a

Kaya: [00:45:05] exciting time. 

Sandrine: [00:45:07] One of the thing we are doing with NEMR  in the next month or two is to support academic writing.

And although you haven't embarked yet on your PhD, but you've already written a book.  So in a way you are already a writer, maybe not an academic writer yet, but you have experiences in writing. Thing that I'm always interested to hear about is the habits that people have to become to effective writer and to write regularly. What are the habits that you have to get you to write.

 Kaya: [00:45:38] I think first and foremost was, for me, it was, I have to be interested in what I'm writing about and I've found that that is very important even for the PhD program, because I'm committing to this research or I'm committing to this project or this book that I'm writing. And so, if the topic is boring for me, or it's not deeply ingrained to why do I really want to explore it? It definitely won't work because writing and getting to the finish line is such hard work.  So yeah, being able to know that I'm I really passionate about this topic, if yes fantastic.  So, have to be honest with myself.  Then the second one was. The willingness to read.  It takes a lot of information and literature out there for you to actually get to provide good content that will make sense to the readers. So, if, as a person who is going to do a publication or a book, I am.

Getting all of this information out there around this topic and around my flow of thoughts and trying to condense it into information that can be, you know, palatable for the person that is reading it. And they don't have to go and read all those very many millions of literature. So being able to be willing to read and because information is so much learning when you read best.

So, I realized that I read best. In the morning. So around 4:00 AM to 9:00 AM is my best time to read because I work I'm a morning person. I wake up very excited and very energetic and very annoying that we have a wonderful morning people. So, I read mostly at that time. So, I read. In that time when my brain is willing to cooperate with me during the day, when it becomes whole time, my brain is not cooperating.

So, I've learned to read at that time, then also taking notes.  As in, when I'm reading on the core, because I realized that you made keep a mental note, that you will have so many mental notes that you will not remember. So I've I write on the go sticky notes, Google drive any information that I have that hooks up to me or I've thought a concept when I'm on the go in the car somewhere, I stopped write it down and say, I'll come back to you later. So, having to say, I don't have to do all my writing at the same time as when the concept makes sense to me, I have to take a moment, give it a break and make it, make a quick note about them.

They'll get back to it. And then also writing every day is a habit that has helped me because sometimes I 'm not in the mood to write. But because I have practice that I must write today. These mental notes that I've made will help me in the days when they have no new light bulb moments. So, writing every day then gets your mind to continuously think about the concept and explore it even in your subconscious so that when you want to write and you have the light bulb moment.

The information is readily available to you, but then also asking for feedback and being open to it. I had to rewrite my book about five times and yeah, it's actually very painful. The first time I had to rewrite, I think 90% of the book, because. I read it. And I said, but this is, this is not the style that I was going for.

So my book is more of a conversation with the reader like Sandrine, and I'm sharing my life with you. And then halfway down the book, it's like Sandrine and I'm commanding you what to do. And so being able to say, okay, I'm going to go back to the drawing board and rewrite. It's painful but it's so worth it.

So the feedback that you get from peer readers or people who are in the target audience sell in this publication for someone who is in this space, do they understand what I'm trying to communicate? And are they getting it clearly? 

Sandrine: [00:49:46] That's very helpful    all right. Kaya. It's been really a pleasure talking to you. I really hope we could carry on the conversation, but I know that you are busy. I really look forward to meeting you again through the NEMRA network and I wish you the best of luck in getting this PhD   it's exciting time and I'm sure that you'll have great things to contribute .

so best of luck with 

Kaya: [00:50:13] that, I wish you 

Sandrine: [00:50:16] the very best interests. My pleasure. Talk to you soon. 

Kaya: [00:50:21] Bye.