11- Dr Jill Shepherd- making choices that work for you

Dr Jill Shepherd is a stem cell scientist who lectures at the University of Kent.

I met Jill when she was a PhD student at the University of Sheffield. Since then she has worked in Australia as a Postdoc, and back in the UK, she had a period as a consultant working on a bioinformatic project for stem cell science.

A defining time in her professional life was the period she spent working in science policy development at the Human Tissue Authority. She was working on policies related to the storage of cord blood stem cells.

One of her principles in guiding her professional life has been to make choices that work for her. This shows great strengths and wisdom, as so many of us make choices that we think we should make, and which may not be really choices that work for us. Connecting to what we need in our lives owe to be an anchor in our key professional/ life decisions, but it is not always what guides us.

Find Jill here: https://www.kent.ac.uk/biosciences/people/1026/shepherd-jill

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Transcript

This is a rough transcript so bear with me with any mistakes!

In this episode of the podcast, you will meet Dr. Jill Shepherd, who is an expert in stem cell biology. I met Jill many years ago when she was still a PhD student at the University of Sheffield. It was a pleasure to have a conversation with her after all these years. She's now working at the University of Kent. Before moving into her current lectureship position. She also spent some time in Australia, working as a postdoctoral researcher. She also spent some time working for the Human Tissue Authority. And is an expert in many issues to do with the ethical use of stem cells. I hope you enjoy our conversation.  

Sandrine: [00:01:37] It's really quite exciting to meet you again, Jill, after all these years. And you've done a lot of work since the period I saw you in Sheffield. So it will be really interesting to hear about your career because you have a path that's, maybe not unusual, but probably different from people that I've I've met before.

So can you tell us a little bit about the early years in your research career? How did it all start it? Can you give us a little brief career history?

Jill: [00:02:09] Yes. I think I can try to do that.  I guess it all started,  my interest in scientific research, just after my undergraduate degree. Well, I was doing my undergraduate degree. Then I got  a technician job and I went in. Worked in the lab and it was there that I really realized, I got a real taste for scientific research in a real setting, right? Not in a teaching lab during my undergraduate degree, or even doing research projects but what really, really happens at all the things that you do, like lab meetings and traveling, and doing the hands-on work, doing something new and real and contributing to a big project and I was hooked, so I said, yeah, you know what? I think this is what I want to do.

Sandrine: [00:02:49]  Then why did you choose to do a PhD in the UK? How did it come about.

Jill: [00:02:55] well, that was partly, personal circumstances. So, as a result of the job, working with that Professor Harry Daly at the University of Georgia in his lab as a technician, that's where I met Mark Shepherd, who then became my husband, , in a fairly short space of time. , we met in 2003 and we were married in 2005. And three days after we got married, we moved to the UK. So we, so I was going to the UK as it was. So  before I came,  I managed to get a technician job,  at the University of Sheffield and, and I was working in a Zebrafish lab lab.  And I found that really interesting and actually.

And my supervisor, agreed to apply for a PhD for me.  Unfortunately we didn't get money. So, that was my first tough lesson learned because I was, the technician money was gone. There was no PhD. I was there with my new husband who was a post-doc.  So I actually,  knew I wanted to do a PhD and I was pursuing that but  I needed to stay in Sheffield at the time. And so I actually went to work. in French Connection for my pay check and I did look for my PhD by talking to people again, it was conversations, and also the fact that I was involved in the school already, and I wanted to stay in Sheffield and then I managed to, talk a lot to Professor Dave Rice who, , agreed, , that I can have a Krebs studentship and that's a funded PhD. So I got money for a Krebs studentship. And this was kind of back in the old days where there was a little bit more control over this sort of thing, , within schools. And I was, luckily for me, I was able to benefit from that. And again, it was by talking, it was by talking to him, telling him what I'm interested in.

And he sent me on my way with my money to walk around the school, talking to different academics, seeing  if they wanted me. And I wanted them, if we could work together, we had common interests. So that's what I did. And I, I must say. It was hard.  

Sandrine: [00:04:56] One of the things that's interesting is that often people have a sense that there is a clear path, but, sometimes it just starts with conversation and being daring enough to go and talk to people    you say that you went to Dave Rice and did you already have an idea of what you wanted to work or not? Not really. 

 Jill: [00:05:16] I was always interested in developmental biology so I knew that I wanted to kind of stay with that. And I was, quite invested in the idea of working with zebrafish, so I just wanted to look around for who else was doing something in developmental biology.

 When I found  the center for stemcell biology, I was so happy because I knew.  I'd been interested in STEM cells for my entire undergraduate. As a girl growing up in a Roman Catholic family, my interest in human embryonic STEM cells was not really applauded, but I had a lot of debates with my mom and my dad when I was in high school about this sort of thing.

And so I was really keen. To get more involved in that. And maybe it was my rebellious streak, I don't know, but I was really keen to get involved in that with the Centre for  STEM cell biology. When I went to talk to, , Professor Harry Moore, he seems like a person that get on with that. We could work together.

I was interested in his work and what they were doing.  And he said, yes, So it, it, it was really at that point,  it was a dream come true for me, to be honest, I was actually pretty shocked that I had made it to that point with the road that  I pinned down. 

Sandrine: [00:06:26] So  how long did you spend working in the Centre for STEM cell biology?

Jill: [00:06:31] Started there in 2006 and  for the next three years. , and then while I was writing up, I was doing a post-doc in the medical school, in urology, with Oliver Bandmann , and that was really challenging. it was a very, that was a very challenging time for me because I was trying to write up my PhD  that was really a challenging time. , but we got through it. , and yeah, and so in spring, 2010 is when I had my Viva and, , and all was well. , , while I was working for Oliver Bandmann   in neurology, I was applying for other positions.

While I was doing my PhD,  at the, at the Centre for STEM cell biology, I was talking to a friend, luckily we were a close knit group of pH D students and we talk then that's partly due to Sandrine and the work she was doing at the time, helping us all develop a community of students.    We had a bit of expertise there in Sheffield with microarrays, but, not Specifically for working with STEM cells.

And so this group was led by, , professor, , Sean Grimmond he was doing microarrays with stem cells. That's what I was doing in my PhD. So I thought this is perfect applied for it. Got it. Went out to see him in Australia for a couple of weeks finished. My PhD,  was working. As a post-doc  in the medical school.

 I got in touch with Sean and said, look, Sean, I've finished my PhD. And I'd really like to work with you. And he said, okay. And there I was. So I had the opportunity to then go and do a postdoc with him off the back of spending two weeks in his lab during my PhD. , and so that travel scholarship was one of the most important things I did for my career.

And it was again, just because I was talking to a friend 

 Sandrine: [00:08:12] After you had met this, Academic , in Australia that you wanted to work with, sometimes we, you know, we meet people and we want to work with, with them, but actually getting the funding to do a travel trip or then going from spending a couple of weeks with,  somebody in a lab to actually getting a fellowship or, you know, postdoc to work with them is not necessarily easy.

So what was your approach in being able to actually get a position working with this person?

Jill: [00:08:43] part of it is probably, , luck in that  Sean Grumman's lab was really, really well funded. So this was a group that,  by the time I worked with them,  had, , something we're doing next gen sequencing and had something like, 11 sequencers  there were 40 of us. So there was money everywhere. So money wasn't a problem. When I arrived, I was put into control, ,  of a, quite a generous budget, you know, and  this was living the dream post-doc I was really excited and I had a great time working in Sean's group and was able to meet a lot of people, do a lot of traveling  contribute a variety of different publications, things that I had never really been involved with, like micro RNAs and,   just get really, , start to sink my teeth into, , You know, into sequencing and using these technologies bioinformatics.

And , I was really enjoying myself.

Sandrine: [00:09:50] So it sounds, it sounds like you had a really amazing experience as a post doc, but obviously then you, you came back to the UK and so what was, again, the decision. Because each of these steps, you know, decisions have to be made. I mean, just changing country when you get established in a country.

So what made you decide to leave Australia to want to go back to the UK and and again, change direction at that time.

Jill: [00:10:16] well, and that was a really difficult one.   So there, the position was for three years I was there for about nine months. And at that point, my husband Mark, he had got a position at the same university. So we went out at the same time to Australia together and myself and my husband, both doing post-docs both had him being a wonderful time.  Mark's career started a little bit before mine. So  this was his third post , when he was out there. And so he was at the point where he was looking for academic positions for PI positions and he was so he was actively looking for those , at that time. And nine months into   my dream post-doc   in Australia he got one 

Sandrine: [00:11:03] Oh, 

Jill: [00:11:08] and it was unexpected. I must say we, you know,  he was kind of prospectively applying for them at that point. And so we were both. Pleasantly surprised, but we had a really difficult decision to make. And  we've made it as a team and we have always taken the approach that, we do what's best for the team.

And that was what was best for the team at the time. Now I could have stayed out in Australia for sure a longer time and we could have tried to do things that way, that's just wouldn't have worked for us on a personal level. And so, yeah, so difficult decision come back  it was really hard really because it was such an amazing, place to be in Australia. They pay postdocs quite well in Australia. So we had a very nice lifestyle. We used to take a boat to work every day. 

Sandrine: [00:11:57] Yeah. 

Jill: [00:11:57] used to take , a fiery, we, you know, was amazing. The university of Queensland Institute for molecular bio-science was a great place to be. There was no undergraduate teaching involved except for undergrads who would come in and do projects in the lab. So it was just all research and it was all amazing.  Did a lot of traveling while I was there Came back to the UK.  Because of some of the people I'd met while there was at the university of Queensland, I was able to carry on some of the work that I was doing when I came to the UK. And that was really helpful. So I carried on some work as a, , consultant.

 There are a lot of couples as you know, in science. And,  my supervisor, , Shawn Grennan, um,  his wife, Christine Wells  also worked in a university of Queensland heading up a group.  Works in stem cells as well. She started head, started this project called STEM informatics, and it was all about, , setting up an online resource, for people who were working in the stem cell field and doing.

 Bioinformatics, but perhaps didn't have access to the team of bioinformatics experts that we had  at Queensland. So anyway, I got involved in the stem from informatics project with Christine and  she funded that for a year. So I had kind of, it was kind of like another mini post-doc.

I did that for a year from Canterbury. 

And so I managed the team remotely from Canterbury. I managed the rest of the team was in Australia. 

Sandrine: [00:13:20] So  you were doing your distance  teamworking before. COVID, that's really interesting.

Jill: [00:13:25] Yeah, that's right. And it was more challenging than what I am doing now now distance wise, because it was obviously across time zones. A big expanse of time. So that was challenging too, you know, having meetings at strange times and, , work, not being in sync. but that was a one-year contract. so we always knew that that was going to come to an end.

, luckily that was able to end with,  a publication with last author publication for me. And, and that  and to eventually get my academic position that I have now. 

Sandrine: [00:13:55] It's really interesting in a way of managing a team from such a distance. And I guess were these people that you already knew, or that you, you met after you started, because. I mean, I'm thinking about it in the context that we are now in where people are starting positions and they are not meeting people, you know, in, in real life.

And  they may have to start managing people from a distance. Having never actually met them or joining a, , position  where they've never spent time together and having to work as teams. So what, what do you think that you learned about working at a distance?

That in a way maybe it's helpful now in, in the way you may be able to work now with colleagues or what really it takes to be able to work well with people remotely. 

Jill: [00:14:45] well, I was lucky that we did know each other before , we started working remotely so that the project, we had a lot of lead in time, several months of lead in time before I actually left Australia  So I knew I knew them, , , but I think in terms of your question, , I think  flexibility and also, , Thinking of people. So it can be difficult to convey a tone, been email, or if you're, even if you're talking like when you can't see others faces, sometimes that can be really hard. , and I understand it can be hard.

And, , I think having a measure  of kind of understanding and not reading too much into people's actions and what they say.  I think really important  to be able to establish relationship from a distance. we got a lot of work done. we also talked to each other, like we had a bit of a conversation in a work call before the work began.

Just like when you would do, if you entered a room with someone. 

So that was helpful too. Just being nice to each other extra nice. 

Sandrine: [00:15:50] at the end, when you finish this contract, was it then when you joined the human tissue authority. 

Jill: [00:15:56] yes. So,  I knew the contract was coming to an end, so I was looking for jobs and that was one of the challenging points , in my career because I was looking for a direction I was based in Canterbury. There wasn't an existing STEM cell lab, , at the university of Kent or anywhere in Canterbury.

 For me to join as a post-doc, I wasn't yet in a position professionally where I  would have been ready to apply for my own money to start my own group, that, that wasn't an option for me at that point. So it would've meant my, my choice really seemed to be post-doc in London and commuting from Canterbury, which is an hour on the fast train. , so two hour return journey every day, , or trying something different.  so I knew the postdoc would be an opportunity. I applied for postdocs. I went to some interviews and, those opportunities would have been there. , but I was really focused on trying to see if there was something different for me looked into, I just looked at jobs on website and I kind of found the HTA by chance. I didn't even know it existed to be honest,  at that point, but I did tell them that in the interview. I think perhaps they appreciated my honesty, but I was interested in learning about them.

And, there were a nice group of people and they were working on regulation of cell therapies. And I had the opportunity to join a team where I would be able to use stem cells, because they didn't have anybody working on STEM cells at the time,  to predominantly work in that area.

I even was able to work with during that time, people that I knew from my PhD, , because they were,  in that field of getting human embryonic stem cells going,  UK stem cell bank. I was able to interact with them.  Once I had the interview and I knew exactly what they were doing.

I thought actually, yeah, this could be a good fit. And in the ethics as well. Like I said before, from growing up Catholic and doing a Stem cell PhD I'd on human  embryonic stem cell. I was like, yeah. So I think I, it was a good fit for me.

Sandrine: [00:17:51] I meet a lot of postdocs who, you know, at the end of several, post-docs don't necessarily have a clue what they want to do next, but in a way, from what you're describing is that sometime just looking around and being open to opportunities and you may not have great clarity of what it is that you may want to do, but having clarity about what interests you and in what you're saying, is that okay?

An interest in the ethics element of using, , embryonic stem cells was the sort of the anchor to actually exploring what you may be able to do. 

Jill: [00:18:25] I think even sometimes perhaps if people do know, they find that that changes out of necessity for one reason or the other, for me that, like you say, the anchor with the common thread running through my decision-making was stem cells. This is what I'm interested in in some way, shape or form. How can I make sure that my career is staying true to this and connects with this in some way? And I actually did my work at HTA like  another post-doc. , that's how I thought of it. , and actually that helped me  as I was there because in a way, you know, at times I did feel like I've left academia. I never thought that I would do that. I always knew that I wanted to come back and I told my supervisor that at HTA, whether that was right or wrong,

When I was at HTA, I had a very nice mentor. , my boss, who actually had a law degree. And so she wasn't a scientist

 I had a wonderful relationship. , and she was a really important mentor for me,  as a female,  , in the field, , that we were in, , which is predominantly men. and also just as a, a really sound, ,   provider  of advice and somebody who just advise me on things like. Okay, but what do you really, what do you really want? how can we make this position interesting for you?    Her name is Imogen Swan 

 She was very good at helping using the expertise of the members of her team. Cause we were all scientists with PhDs in various areas, different kinds of experience. And she was really keen on making sure that we were all invested and interested in what we were doing.

And that's the way she allocated project work. So we had the meat of our job, which was going out and doing inspections of different types of organizations who are involved in cell therapies.  So that was kind of the meat and potatoes of the role.  Interesting as it was, the more interesting work was on the policy different types of organizations who are involved in cell therapies. So that was kind of the meat and potatoes of the role. Interesting as it was, , the more interesting work was on the policy development, , interacting  with the EU commission. And things going to meetings, having a collaboration with FDA, these are all opportunities that came onto my desk because she knew. That I was interested in and she, she allocated the work-life back to her team. She took a great deal of interest in what we were interested in. 

Sandrine: [00:20:44] Can I ask you, what, what was the most interesting part of the role that you had there? Where did you feel that you were really making a difference and contributing in a big way? Because often when we are in the lab, you know, things can be very repetitive and, you know, increments in science are so small.

And , when you have a role in policy,  the work that you're contributing can actually completely reshape the way something is done or something is allowed. So how did you feel that you were contributing  in a broader way through that role? 

Jill: [00:21:18] work I did.  With hematopoietic stem cell.  Was , what's probably the space where I felt like,  our team was, was really making a meaningful contribution. We developed guidance for parents , who were considering banking, their cord, blood,  privately  and, Somewhat of a notorious private cord, blood banking,  , industry, in other parts of the world as well, who, , who really aren't looked favourably upon by the public cord blood banks, such as NHS, PT, and the others because of the way that they Really take advantage  of  parents, at a, at a emotional time, , providing misinformation stretching the facts and making a lot of money out of it.

 And one thing that we worked on at HTA is providing guidance for parents on what they should do when they're quote on quote, shopping for  a cord blood bank, but also inspecting  the cord blood banks and  pulling them up on this misinformation and taking action against them.  That was something that was really important something that's still important now. And I teach hematology at the University of Kent that's one of my modules. And part of the reason I enjoy teaching that so much is because I get to talk about this side of it.  And  teaching a master's course as well.

Where I  bring this to light and,  students are always surprised by it.  So I think public in knowledge and 

information is still really important to me in what I do now. 

Sandrine: [00:22:40] So  why then go back  into academia?  What was the pull to go back? 

Jill: [00:22:47] I always wanted to go back.  There was always an element, that was missing for me. , and I think I was missing mainly  the academic freedom that comes with being based  in a university. So whilst I was able to contribute   as these projects came about and even be proactive with certain projects as well, starting some of my own work at HTA that the freedom to, pursue my. Interests. Just, just didn't exist in that, type of organization, to the extent that we have it in universities because that's kind of what it's all about.

Isn't it. If you, if you have some good ideas and you can. And get some money then, you know, there you go. You can, you can do it and it should be done. And I felt that there was a lot that I wanted to do that I, I didn't have the freedom to do knew it was time for a change. It was also personal lifetime for a change as well.

I had two children while I was working for HTA. That worked out brilliantly, , because they had a very nice maternity package. very generous in the, in public sector.  I had a year off with both of my kids. For maternity leave. And so that, that was a great part of working for that kind of organization. Whereas I think if, if I had been on a short term research contract I probably would have felt the pressure to return perhaps a bit earlier. And I'm glad I did it the way that I did. So I had both personal and professional reasons for it. Just being time for it. Time And then this position was advertised. I was working part-time for the human tissue authority at the time. My kids were really little and that's what I wanted. I chose to go down to part-time from full-time at HTA and I wanted a part-time job and a part-time job coming up as an academic is a very rare thing. And a part-time job came up.

In the university where I wanted to be where my husband worked and this. is too perfect to not try for this. So I did. And in the end it worked out. So here we are, again, at the same 

university, living within a mile of where we work and, , life is good. 

Sandrine: [00:24:57] That sounds pretty amazing. It's one of these opportunities where  it's too good to be true, but the question that I have about it is how did you manage to convince people to take you on what did they like about,  , your career paths? Because again, I think it's a question that many people have is,  if I leave academia, will I ever be able to go back?

So from the,  work that you had done,  as a post doc and, , then working in policy, what was it that was really your selling point. And the way the department wanted you and not somebody who had just stayed in science.

Jill: [00:25:34] So, because I was interested in coming back to academia while I was working at the HTA I got in touch with the school of bio sciences at the university of Kent and said, do you need anybody to do some teaching on policy? In any of your modules, because I'm doing this and, you know, as you know, free, I wanted to get some experience. my services for free to come and do a bit of guest lecturing or So, professor Dan Lloyd said, yes, please. And, , I was able  run a workshop on the master's course. that for two years, while I was working for HTA. , and so it was just a short, one day thing.

I run three-hour workshop for master's students on policy in stem cells, stem cell therapeutics. And so I had that under my belt. They knew me.  and so I applied for the job. And, they were actually looking someone with experience in the NHS with the NHS because , program, , has accreditation from the Institute science-part of that is getting input from the clinical community into the course. They were looking for someone with experience  to help expand. , the interaction with our local clinical community. So I did, I had the experience that they wanted, plus they knew me already.

Sandrine: [00:26:53] Which makes a big difference in reality. It's about making sure that you don't cut your bridges and, and it's about really the interaction and the relationship 

Jill: [00:27:03] yes. That's it. I think it was about, like you say, building relationships and talking to people,  asking if there are opportunities and being willing to work. you know, because when I was teaching for the university of Kent, this was  extra work on top at the time  a full-time job , but I knew that it might help me someday and then that's 

what I wanted ,needed to do. So I think doing the extra work 

Sandrine: [00:27:27] So now you're working as a lecture. So what is the job like? 

Jill: [00:27:32] well, the job when I started was your classical lecturing. obviously now it's online, , for this year, so it's a bit different, but my job at the University of Kent  is lecturer in stem cell biology is my title. And,  I also and I'm a program director for our biomedical science undergraduate degrees.

So lecturing, teach different modules. I convened different modules. the, most of , my week is spent preparing and delivering , and planning teaching with my program director hat on I'm responsible for maintaining our accreditations and I'm with the Institute for biomedical science, and doing other administrative type roles. , I'm , now. So representing my colleagues interests with the wider, university  with my program director, hat on, I've been, , doing some, getting quite a few,  people from their local clinical community on  to start teaching within some of our modules. So that's been really nice, going out, getting to know.

People from the, , hospitals consultants, scientists, clinical scientists, and working together with them to help shape their contribution to teaching, on some of the different modules. So I teach a module where we do some histopathology and a pathologist from the hospital has done some digital microscopy with us, which has been really fun.

So I've been interacting a lot with the hospital, doing a lot of teaching and, some research has started to come across my desk, which is also really nice.  I supervise final year research projects every year.  Dissertations, , projects about communication. So not lab projects, I'm not doing lab projects, but products about communication. , we have ethics projects and business projects as well. I think my previous experience, supervising those projects has been, , really fun. , and my projects are always about STEM cells. So that's the way that I can keep kind of keep my hand in and have a bit of protected time to keep up with the with the literature where I'm still contributing to my core role, which is teaching. And that's really important to me because I, I, you know, there may be, you know, opportunities research comes across my desk. , I'm involved in some of our signature research themes, talking to people about. Different kinds of projects that can span across disciplines.

, so I'd like, , for that to develop more, maybe co-supervise a PhD students sort of as a, as a first off. So, we'll see how that develops. And that's really one of the exciting things for me is that the role is still developing and changing and 

there's room to grow and a lot of support from the school to do that.

Sandrine: [00:30:05] In the role that you currently have, is there an expectation that you build a research portfolio or is the position focused on the teaching? And the research is kind of something that you can do, but there isn't an expectation because obviously different universities and different lectureship positions have expectation that are different for the research.

So in your case, is it kind of an add-on or is it really an expectation , that you build a new research 

portfolio?

Jill: [00:30:35] in my role. It's an add-on. So  there's no expectation that I  build a research portfolio at all. The, the contract is called teaching and scholarship; the scholarship element technically,  is expectation of pedagogical scholarship. So teaching related , which ,  with some colleagues across the university.  And that's been very interesting, but, you know, I've always been very  honest with  my mentors and my supervisors here that my real interest would be to do scientific research. ,  and they've been very accommodating to say, well,  if there's time, you know, why not? If you have time get involved in that. So alongside other things, so it's definitely an add-on and it's one of those things that if it comes to me,I'll 

Sandrine: [00:31:14]  If you reflect on the, the experience that that you've had, and they've been very diverse, you know, in, in your career, is there anything that you would do differently? I mean, you've had a very successful career and you you've tried things and you've been very proactive.

Is there something that, you know, you will do, you know, in retrospective that you, you think I could, you know, if I had been doing that, maybe I will be doing something different or better. I don't know. Or in a way, do you feel quite calm and quite happy with how things have worked out?  

Jill: [00:31:50] I think if you'd asked me that question in 2012, I wish I would have published lots more papers so really early on, but I think every postdoc would probably say that. now I have no complaints and, and I feel fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had.

And so, yeah, I'm, I'm happy. 

Sandrine: [00:32:15] So the podcasts that I am making is about lives  in research, but also the research culture, when you're reflecting on the experiences that you've had in various labs, in different countries, what do you think is the most important 

Jill: [00:32:30] As an individual, I think it's really important to approach your research from a perspective  of what can I learn from this experience? I worked with a really diverse team and. There were,  different sets  of expertise. And some of us knew about science  and some of us knew , about mostly about computers. Some of people mostly knew about statistics. Some people were very technical, we all needed each other. And we all knew  that we had something to bring, but we all knew we had something to learn. So I think approaching it from the perspective , of, ,  everybody has something to bring to the table and learning from each other and using each other's expertise, ,  to work together as really important collaboration, really enjoying learning.

Sandrine: [00:33:21] I like it to finish the podcast by asking people  five tips about navigating research careers.  If you met, a bright, shiny students starting , bright, shiny postdoc starting their career in research. What would you say to them?

 We all have our own path and we all make different choices, but what are  your best tips for navigating, joyfully the research environment.

Jill: [00:33:49] I think that's a really nice way to put it joyfully navigating, and it's really important because it should be, it should be enjoyed. Let's face it. None of us are in this field because we want to become millionaires, so we need to be enjoying what we're doing.  , I could five tips. That's a lot of tips, but I'm going to do my best.

Okay. So I've thought about this a little bit before. So I would say I talk a lot,  of conversations, um, spend all your time readings. They talk to people. , be proactive. Don't wait for advertised positions to come up. Don't wait for opportunities to come to you think and reflect and be proactive about what you're interested in and go and get it,  ask for it. when you're talking about common interests, but stay true to your own interests be open-minded and flexible in how you think about those,  when a really good sounding exciting opportunity comes across your desk, but you're really busy doing other things.

That are maybe not as exciting, try to say yes to that exciting opportunity and see if you can spend a little less time doing the other stuff that other people think is really important. Try to say yes to those exciting things, because it can take you in a really. The good direction for you as an individual and I guess this is part of the last one, trust your gut and, just take risks. If it sounds like a good thing that you want to do, trust your gut and just go for it.

Sandrine: [00:35:16] Brilliant. Lots of really nice ideas. Lovely. Thank you. Well, Jill has been really a pleasure discussing with you.  I wish you all the best in your online teaching.  It's kind of a challenging year. And, I'm sure that the story of your career path will be very helpful to lots of other people who are trying to figure out, figure out how to navigate their own career in the research environment.

So thank you very much.

 Jill: [00:35:44] Thanks, Sandrine. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.