12- Dr Saida Caballero-Nieves on pacing the expansion of your research group

When Postdocs transition into lectureship positions, there is often an expectation about the pace at which one owe to build a research group. Having the confidence to hold on your fire and say- hang on a minute…I just need to follow a pace that we will work for me and the way I want to be able to support my students. Well, that’s exactly what my Podcast guest did when she started her lectureship position. 

You will meet during this episode Dr Saida Caballero-Nieves, who is an Assistant Professor in Aerospace, Physics and Space Sciences at Florida Tech in the US. She has a Ph. D. in Astronomy and a Masters in Physics from Georgia State University. She spent some time as a Postdoctoral researcher at The University of Sheffield in the UK before her transition to her current academic position.

Get in touch with Saida:

https://www.fit.edu/faculty-profiles/7/saida-caballero-nieves/

Find out about:

·      What it feels like to start being responsible for the academic career of others

·      How it is possible to gain long term mentors

·      Why reaching out to others is so essential in research careers

·      What it’s like to become a research supervisor who commits to the mental wellbeing of research students
·      How you can live with imposter syndrome and just be fine with it

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You can get this episode shownotes here on the website.

Get in touch to become a contributor to the podcast: sandrine@tesselledevelopment.com

Transcript

***This transcript may not be perfect, but I hope it will help you if audio access is an issue. 

Many thanks

Sandrine Soubes***

[music]

Dr. Sandrine Soubes: Welcome to Research Lives and Cultures, the podcast that offers conversation about the research environment. In my career as a researcher, developer, coach, and trainer, I've come across a great many PhD students and postdocs. Sometimes you meet researchers who stand out or maybe really engaged in what you're offering. They're out there being visible, engaged, and active members of the researchers' community. My guest today was such a researcher. Her name is Saida Caballero-Nieves. She's now an assistant professor in the US.

I always find it exciting and fascinating to get back in touch with researchers I have met earlier on in their careers. My name is Dr. Sandrine Soubes, and I am your host on this podcast. I am committed to ease the path to research careers by sharing stories of researchers' lives. I hope you find value in hearing insights from my discussion with Saida.

Good morning, everyone. You are now on the podcast Research Lives and Cultures, with me, Sandrine Soubes. I'm your host. Today I have the pleasure to have with me Dr. Saida Caballero-Nieves'.

Saida is assistant professor of astronomy in the Department of Physics and Space Science at the Florida Institute of Technology. I met Saida many years ago when she was a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Sheffield. I haven't seen Saida in a very long time. It's really my pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Dr. Saida Caballero-Nieves: Thank you for having me. It's great seeing you again.

Sandrine : Saida, since you left the UK, can you give us an overview of what's happened in your career so far?

Saida: Thank you for the nice introduction. As you mentioned, I did my postdoc in the UK in Sheffield. I was there for about four years. I was fortunate enough at that time, at the end of four years, that I was able to find the faculty position at Florida Tech. I've been there now for four years as well. I am an assistant professor of astronomy, astrophysics. We are a department of aerospace, physics, and space science, and so, it's a really diverse department, but it's actually a very small department. Currently, I am the only female faculty on the physics and space science side.

We do have another female faculty on the aerospace engineering, but the programs are rather separate. Effectively, I almost as if I were the only female faculty in our program.

A lot of why I was able to come to Florida, my family was here, but also I had the two-body problem that many people have. My husband is also in academia. He had found a job at Embry-Riddle University, which is in Daytona, Florida. I applied for a position there, and I did not get it. Once I didn't get it, I was looking to find something nearby.

I also did consider perhaps leaving the field at some point, but fortunately, a position opened up here at Florida Tech. I was able to apply for it, and I was able to get it.

Sandrine: If we sidetrack a little bit, can you tell us initially why did you actually want to come and do a postdoc in the UK? It's often we have the expectation that PhD graduates from the UK, go and do a postdoc in the US. Probably, 20 years ago, there was an expectation that you had to do this to be able to be successful in getting an academic position in the UK, and this certainly has changed. It's rarer, I guess, to have a US PhD graduate come on this side of the Atlantic.

Saida: Yes. In my field, there aren't a lot of postdoc opportunities in astronomy and astrophysics. You basically have to go where there are. There happened to be one in Portugal and one in the UK when I was applying. I got accepted to the one in the UK, which I did accept at that time. It was a point in my life where I was willing to do something very different to move to a different place. To be honest, I've been moving quite a bit for a lot of my life, so, I'm not as attached to one location as you would expect me to be. The US is a quite large country, and that's where I moved to when I was rather young.

I moved around for my undergraduate, I moved around for my PhD, and so, really moving again for the postdoc was something expected. Whether it was here in the US or in the UK, to me, at that time, it didn't really make too much of a difference. Though one thing I will say is that, in my area, which is stellar astrophysics, Europe, in general, has a much stronger community in stellar astrophysics. The US tends to focus more on extragalactic, and extrasolar planets, and things like that.

The opportunities, actually, from my perspective, make more sense that I would be going over to UK or Europe for my postdoc than it would be to actually stay here in the US.

Sandrine: Could you share with us some of the highlights of doing your postdoc in term of how it moved you towards being in a position to then get an academic position? I used to, obviously, work at the University of Sheffield, and I do understand the setup. As a postdoc, there are lots of opportunities that are available, and sometime managing all of the opportunities that are there, are very challenging. Knowing what opportunities to choose from, knowing what to focus on can be really, really challenging.

What do you think that you did during your postdoc that you felt that really made a difference in shifting yourself forward in your academic career?

Saida: Probably, it sounds strange to me because I don't think of myself as a very social person, but I think in my ability to become more independent and meet other postdocs or meet other early career researchers, I learned quite a bit more about not being necessarily as shy. Advocating for myself in terms of my research and pushing myself to do more than what I would probably do on my own. Really building a community, both locally at Sheffield, and within my larger academic community was, I think, the biggest thing that helped me.

I think a lot of that encouraged me to seek a lot of the career development opportunities at Sheffield. Being back in the US, I find that those opportunities were actually rather unique, especially for early-career researchers. You don't necessarily find that everywhere, and so, writing workshops, or doing things to work on your presentation skills are really important because a lot of what we do is actually communication.

You need to either communicate verbally, or you need to communicate publishing papers or writing proposals. A lot of your science, even though you can be really, really good at it, if you can't communicate it effectively it's almost as if you're not doing anything. Having a community where I felt comfortable really encouraged me to develop these skills that I didn't really have the opportunity to do so before I became a postdoc.

Sandrine: If I remember correctly, when you were a postdoc in Sheffield, it was a period where the postdoc society was being set up in the physics department, or people were trying. Is that what you're referring in term of the local support?

Saida: Yes. Actually, I was the person who started that postdoc society at Sheffield. I don't know if they've been able to keep it going. I was the only postdoc in astronomy. While I did interact a lot with the graduate students, and they were great, I was at a different stage in my career, and so, the expectation for me was different. Having somebody at a similar stage, helped, or just a few years ahead of me, helped know what to move towards, and be able to ask questions to somebody who has a similar experience, or just a bit more experience than I do.

As somebody who also came from a different country I didn't know anybody there, and so your work environment, your work colleagues can often just be that, work colleagues. Sometimes you do need that social base. In creating that postdoc society, I was able to meet some really great people that have become some really close friends.

Sandrine: Going back to this idea of the type of opportunities that you took, how did you make a choice? Because again, you were in an institution where there was a huge amount on offer to support researchers. Often there could be a sense of, "I don't know which opportunity to take because there is just so much to do," and making decisions on where you put your way effort. For many years, I used to run workshops on public engagement, outreach, and sometime people will say, "I can't focus on that because that's not my priority." While for others, it's like, "Actually, this matters to me greatly because it fits within the values that I have in term of communicating my research broadly." All of us, we make choices of where we put our energy, and sometime it's energy that is well-placed or very strategic.

Sometime we just feel like doing some things. It's not necessarily strategic, but it's just a learning, and an opportunity, and an experience. In your case, did you make conscious decision of the opportunities that you took, or how did you go about each really?

Saida: That's a good question. I think it was a bit of both. I know that one of the things I struggle with a lot is writing and finding motivation for writing. Anytime there was an opportunity to do a writing workshop or doing a writing camp where we just sit there and just write, was something I actively pursued because I knew that's something that I struggled with, and I knew that's something that I really should be working on. Everything else was more unconscious, I would say, is, "Oh, do I have the time? Sure. Does this sound interesting? Sure."

That would be where I would go with that. I always like outreach, so, I know that any opportunity that came up where I could do outreach, I would jump at it for myself. We were part of Festival of the Mind. We did an artwork piece, and I absolutely loved that. I still actually have the artwork in my office that the artist made, tying together with our research. That sort of opportunity, I jumped on. That's actually also what those sort of skills and outreach experience that I had was what allowed me to have a strong position for when I was applying for this position at Florida Tech because they were looking for an observatory director.

A lot of the efforts that goes into being part of the observatory director is outreach work because we are in Florida. Florida, while beautiful and sunny, is often quite cloudy and humid, and so it's actually not ideal for observing. Our telescopes are mainly there to be like, "Hey," inspire the future generation on what to do. That they can do STEM and how cool it is. In terms of science, there's not that much science that actually comes out of it.

Sandrine: These experiences were good elements of having done the outreach as a postdoc in term of convincing your current employer to recruit you?

Saida: I think so. One thing I will say that was something I also did in graduate school, and I also did as an undergrad, so, it's something that I was able to maintain throughout my academic career. I would say that one is probably the most consistent theme throughout my career, is, I've been really excited about outreach and being involved with outreach.

Sandrine: What have been the challenges for you in moving from being a postdoc in the UK to moving back to the US into an academic position?

Because again, from one position to another, and from one country to another, there are some things that are expected that are different. What was it like, this transition, for you?

Saida: It was definitely a learning curve. I spent most of my life in the US, but I spent most of my professional life at that point, not in the US because I was always a student. Coming back here as a professional in work-life, it was pretty different. It was very different from the UK system as well. There are things that are rather standard in the UK, especially when it comes to the positions for postdocs, let's say.

You have like a grade level for each postdoc, and accordingly, you have a pay scale that's associated with that. That doesn't exist here in the US. I immediately had four graduate students when I came here, and being in charge of them, I'm just like, "I just feel like I just graduated, guys. I don't know what to do." I had to learn all these management things that I had no experience in, and what am I supposed to be paying you? I don't know. There's rule book. That sort of thing, it's like you have to learn word of mouth basically. Those things that are unexpected.

It's been also challenging as a supervisor now because I had graduate students, so, now, I was in a supervisor role, which, I had a little bit of experience, but not to the same degree. Their degree is dependent on me for them to actually graduate, and so trying to provide the support they need because academia is not conducive to good mental health. It's challenging for a lot of people, and we all have different ways to handle it.

Being able to provide the students what they need so that they can succeed, and also have a good mental health environment, was a challenge for me because what worked for me doesn't necessarily work for them. That's definitely been another challenge, is trying to make sure I'm encouraging, but also motivating them to push themselves beyond their comfort zone.

Sandrine: How do you go about becoming a decent supervisor? Because, in a way, the way that you were, treated yourself as a PhD student, as a postdoc, influenced your perception of what is appropriate or what is acceptable in the way to behave. Sometime, the way we were treated as students is something we want to go very far away from because it's maybe the practices.

Actually, implementing- maybe nurturing is not the right word- but implementing practices of supervision and of management so that you have the research output that you need yourself because you may still be under probation and so on. It's almost like how to balance the expectation that you're placing on the students in a context that you are really supportive of their progress. How have you managed that?

Saida: I would say it's still a learning process. [chuckles] One thing that I did was just set goals in the sense that, when I arrived at Florida Tech, I mentioned that there were four students that were basically under my supervision. My goal at that time was, I need to focus on getting them to graduate. Every year we get a new batch of incoming graduate students. I basically told myself I can't take on anybody else whose research would be directly related to what I actually do until I am able to successfully get these guys through the door.

That's what I was able to do so far with three out of the four. One of them is still here, but he was also the one that was the most junior out of them. Hopefully, he'll be able to finish soon. Since then, I have now a couple of grad students that are now working on research that's related to what I actually do. It's been realizing I have to set these short-term goals, focus on those, make them happen, and then I can try to work on my long-term goals. I'm not saying I necessarily did the best job of it, but that was how I approached it. It was just like, this is what I have to do right now.

Let me get this done right, and then I can slowly work on my research and building my research group.

Sandrine: That's quite a brave move in the sense that it's almost posing the expansion of your research group saying, "Hang on a minute. I've got four. I'm going to do a good job with these four. I'm going to be settled and figure out how to supervise them well before I accept more people." Probably, not everybody will do that because either a sense of the pressure of the way you may be perceived by colleagues or the department or also a sense that you may be hindering your progression. What gave you the guts, if I may say, to actually say, "Hang on a minute, four will do for now. Let's just wait a bit."?

Saida: Because I'm very much put myself in the student's shoes, so, if it were me who was a student, that's what I think I would need in their situation. That's what helped me make that decision. The other part was that I did continue to work on my research, perhaps at a slower pace, but it did let me focus and work on at a pace that was, I say, not as tense or as pressure-driven in a sense because I was still making progress with the other graduate student's research, and I saw the potential in them. The three that graduated, I saw that they had the motivation, they had the drive. They had the skills and the knowledge necessary, and so I knew that postponing my research, they would be able to succeed.

Sandrine: Often we talk about the role of mentoring and mentors in academic career. Who have been the people who have really helped you throughout your career, and then now, in the context of establishing yourself as a research leader and building your research group, who is also really important now?

Saida: There's always people that I've been able to go back to even if I haven't seen them for a couple of years, or talked to them for a while, that I've been able to reach out, and be like, "Hey, I have this question," or, "I'm at this stage of my life, would you take some time and help me? Talk to me, or look over my applications," or things like that. One of the people I would say really has been throughout both my undergraduate to graduate to postdoc to now where I am has been one of my professors from undergraduate at the University of Michigan.

I actually never had her as a professor in class. I met her through the outreach that we did. She's been the one who's really, at each stage during my life, that I've been like, "Hey, I have this problem. Would you be willing to lend me your ear or give me some thoughts?" She's been really great at being that for me even if we haven't talked in a few years. Often, especially women, but men also experience this quite often, is this imposter syndrome, is, people are giving me these opportunities without me really earning them.

One thing I learned from her is that there is some luck, in that, you can find that position that works for you, or that postdoc, or that graduate program, or that faculty position just when you were applying when they accepted you and took you in, but you had to work hard to place yourself in a position where you could take that opportunity. If you didn't prepare yourself to take that opportunity, you wouldn't be able to have that opportunity. Yes, there is some luck with it, but your hard work is what allowed you to take that opportunity, and do the most of it.

That's been the biggest thing I've taken for her is, yes, I feel like I don't necessarily deserve this, but if I hadn't had the skills, if I hadn't worked hard to achieve what I have done, then I wouldn't be here in the first place. That's something that's been tough to internalize, but I think it's one of the biggest things in allowing me to accept my next position or my next opportunity.

Sandrine: The question is who is helping you now? Obviously, for many postdocs, getting that first academic position is the dream that not many reach, but at the same time, being successful in that space is, again, another whole challenge. What is it that now is really the person really mentoring you or giving you opportunities to become more visible in your research community internationally? What is it like now in the way that you are or not supported to be able to transition to that next stage?

Saida: That's a good question. I would say there's not just one person. There's a few people depending on what I want to do. When I arrived at Florida Tech, our department head was also an astronomer. He's no longer at Florida Tech, but for a lot of my long-term career questions, I still turn to him for that sort of thing because I was able to build a good relationship with him. Especially now since he's familiar with my institution but he's not there anymore, he can also give me a different view than I would, otherwise.

There are some people in similar stages as me, who I admire their career path, that I've been able to form relationships with, that I also reached out and was like, "Hey, look, I know you did this a few years ago, would you be willing to meet up with me and we can talk?" or, "I have this proposal for this program that you were able to get in, would you have a look at it? I think that's actually what's helped me a lot, especially with writing proposals, is getting other people who have been successful to take a look at it and give me ideas on how I can improve my work as well.

Sandrine: Reaching out is really key?

Saida: Exactly. What I learned most during my postdoc is that you're not in this alone. You may feel like you're alone, but you're not in this alone. People are willing to give the time and effort to you to also help you along your way. That's where I was going with when I feel like-- I don't consider myself a social person, but really, the people who I've met along the way have been really critical in helping me achieve the goals that I've been able to meet so far.

Sandrine: What do you think is now really your role, the important thing that you need to be doing as a research team leader? We may have an idea in our heads of how we will want to be as a team leader, as a line manager, but the reality of the social interaction can be very different from ideal. People come into research for lots of different reason, with lots of different motivation, and as a research team leader, you have to adapt to whoever is working with you. Other people's motivation may be very different than yours.

Working well with a diverse team is incredibly challenging, so, how do you see your role? What are your approaches in trying to have a research group that's the best and the most supportive that it can be with very different type of people that you may be recruiting?

Saida: That's a very tough question. It's a hard line to be nurturing or encouraging with students, but also not to be too informal sometimes because there have been times where people have taken advantage of that. For me, my struggle has been balancing. Being like, "I want you to be the best person you are," but also not giving so much of myself that somebody takes advantage of it, and I'm the one who mentally is paying for it. I really don't think I have a really good answer. It's really making sure students are realistic in expectations of what the career fields in academia look like.

What the prospects in terms of jobs and opportunities are. The biggest piece of advice I always give my students is always have a Plan B. Always, always, always have a Plan B.

At every stage in my life, I always had a Plan B, and I think I would have been equally happy had Plan B been the one that worked out. That's where I'm trying to encourage my students because they feel like there's just this one track, and that's the only option. It's just, the reality is that not all of you are going to be able to follow that track, or even if you do follow that track, it may not be how you thought it would be.

You have to be open to different opportunities that present themselves, and that comes in with the idea that luck is if you don't prepare yourself for when that window of opportunity presents itself, then you're not going to be able to take it. Preparing yourself for what you want to do, or what you want to be, is really key. Emphasizing that knowledge to my students, having them develop the skills that they need to be successful, not just in academia, but in any field that they want to be, that's my goal in my research team. I'm avoiding the science here, I think.

The science is great, but, at the same time, if you're not happy with what you're doing, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. It's finding that balance between, I'm enjoying what I'm doing, and following your dreams.

Sandrine: In term of this dimension, the diversity dimension in term of helping people, whether they are neurodiverse, or racially diverse, or whatever, what do you think is your role, or what are the things that are challenging? One of the reason I also ask this question, because I've heard, and I've read in places that, in some cases, some supervisor may not challenge as much, for example, a woman in term of critical thinking and pushing that person because they feel they don't want to push them. I'm sure that there are some proper social science terms to describe this, but it's almost like because you're a woman, I'm not going to be as hard on you as I may be with a male PhD student, for example.

In a way, not necessarily giving the opportunities that some people need to become more visible, to be more challenged to push them because, in a way, sometime if you don't have the inner belief that you can achieve something, and people don't push you towards that, then you don't necessarily reach your potential. As a supervisor, and as a line manager, how do you see your role in stretching people to reach their potential in the context of the default expectation that people are placing on themself, or the default expectation that are placed on them through cultural expectations?

Saida: Another tough question.

Sandrine: It's also a multi-layered question. I should ask simpler question.

Saida: As a woman coming through STEM, I was often the only woman in my classes. Somebody, at one point in my career, asked me because I'm originally from Puerto Rico, so, in the US, I'm an ethnic minority as well, someone asked me, "What do you feel may perhaps challenges you more in terms of being a minority? Being a woman, or being Puerto Rican?" I'm like, "I'm both. My identity is both, I can't separate those two because it's me, it's who I am."

Even though I am coming from the point of view of a minority to my students at least, I try to be honest and be like, I come with my own prejudices, my own biases, regardless of the fact that I know I've been prejudice against and biased against. That is a challenge. I welcome them to point it out to me. I try to be aware of it with my interaction with students. I will admit it is challenging.

I think, for me, the one that I have least experience with, it was probably the neurodiversity ones because necessarily, I don't see myself that way, and so I have a harder time finding ways to be encouraging, but also being direct enough with the students for them to understand what they need to do because maybe perhaps the same social clues for one students does not work for another student. That's been challenging, and that's where trying to be honest with my group, and trying to be encouraging to them, being like, "Hey, I'm not this big, scary professor that you can't talk to,"--

Though, even though I say it multiple times, students don't necessarily believe it, so, it is a challenge. I think what I want to do is for them to see themselves in this field and realize that they can do it if they really, really want to. That's my biggest goal, is to see yourself in this role, and to pursue it. If you do leave the field, it's because you chose to leave the field, not because someone chose it for you.

Sandrine: It's almost like it's the idea of building an identity before you're even in a position to actually have the role.

Saida: Exactly.

Sandrine: What do you think that you have done well in term of enhancing your external visibility, putting your research out there, getting out there, getting people to know what you do? Because, again, that's something that, for a lot of women, you may do amazing research, but you don't necessarily take the time to be super visible in people really knowing what you do, and the expertise that you have, and just doing hard work, publishing well but not being invisible. What have you tried to do to enhance that?

Saida: I will say that's probably the least effort I put into. There are things I've thought about doing, but I haven't actually done. In astronomy, we have a Facebook group that people can post recent publications, and I do that for my students. I don't necessarily do that for my own work, but I will do that for my student's work. Mostly using social media has been helpful in that. We also have Archive which is open access database where you can put publications, and so, any publications that I do have to a journal, I always post there as well.

The other thing for external visibility, I was able to do more so in the UK than I have been here in the US, just because UK it's a little bit easier to travel, or it was back in the day, was giving colloquiums and seminars at different departments. That was pretty key in increasing my visibility among the community, and also introducing myself to people whose research I find interesting when I go to a conference. Asking them questions and not being shy. Those are where my efforts have gone. I wouldn't say I necessarily have done a very good job of it.

Sandrine: Working progress.

Saida: Yes.

Sandrine: What is the most important thing for you in the work that you currently do? I guess you have portfolio of teaching and research, and loads of other admin roles as well, but in your view, at the core of what you enjoy doing, or the values that you have, what do you think is the part that's really the most important to you?

Saida: Seeing the next generation motivated, and seeing how they grow and learn to become their best self in the area. My job is a mix of teaching, research, and what the university calls service, which includes outreach and things like that. Really, I don't get to do this often, but because we are a smaller university, I do get to know our students a lot more, both at their graduate and undergraduate level. Seeing them progress from learning the basics of physics and math to being able to present this publication where they research at the end of their time here, is really, I think, the most exciting part of my job.

Saida: There was a recent report in UK with a survey done by the Wellcome Trust, and reading this report, sometime it feels quite sad. There are loads and loads of challenges, and I'm sure that they are probably similar reports in the US. If there is something that you will want to change in the research environment that's really something that you can contribute towards changing because changing the grant, the funding system is one thing, but often, at our level, it may be hard to change anything--

If there is something that you feel that really is important to me, and I'm going to do something about it, in term of reflecting on the experience that you had as a PhD student, and a postdoc, and now establishing yourself as an academic, and at some point, you will progress in your seniority and your leadership within the institution. What do you think is the space where you feel this is the area where I want to contribute? Maybe you don't, I don't know. I'm asking it as an expectation, but I really shouldn't.

If there was something that you wanted to change in the research environment, where would you want to contribute?

Saida: In the mental health balance expectation, the life-work balance expectation, both for men and women. This is what I tell my students, we all have our challenges, our challenges vary and are different. It's really learning to handle these challenges, and sometimes you need different sets of tools to be able to handle these challenges. It's not obvious that there are tools to handle these challenges, or there are ways to help with the work-life balance because we've had graduate students who, because they're female, and they were pregnant, we don't have parental leave for them.

The same thing if it's the partner who's the one that's pregnant, it's a challenge for them to take any parental leave, or if somebody has a challenge like a neurodiversity challenge. Again, I had a student like that. I tried to go through our university to be like, "Hey, I'm not familiar with this. What are some recommendations? What are some resources that I can do?" The university was just like, "You can look online." That's been really tough because I know these students need a different type of support, and I don't know how to give it to them. Educating myself and having my colleagues also being willing to keep an open mind, I find really challenging. I was told once by a colleague that grad students, the expectation is that they should always be working 80 hours a week.

If they leave at 5:00, even if they got in at 7:00 AM, that's not okay. I completely disagree with that. I think students, even at their stage, or especially at their stage, should be encouraged to, "You put in your time. Take a break because you're usually more effective once you come back."

Sandrine: How have you managed your own resilience in research?

Saida: My husband has been a very supportive person. He's been my sounding board often. I'm not going lie, it's very challenging. It's been very challenging, especially now with COVID, for both personal reasons, and for academic reasons. It's been really tough. I'd say I'm working on it.

Sandrine: Being a woman in physics, how different do you think it is in term of your career than if you were a man? What are the experiences that you've had yourself of being biased against? In a way, we can't necessarily know when we have been biased, but the experience that you've had so far, how do you feel that you've maybe navigated your career differently, or, not being given opportunities because you were a woman, how has this affected you? How have you navigated that space?

Saida: Usually, by finding other women [chuckles] who I can have shared experiences with. I'm usually the only one. It's definitely having to go to other areas or other fields. Here at Florida Tech, we actually had a lunch when we were still meeting face to face, about once a month, for some of the women at Florida Tech. That was really nice to get to know them and get to know people outside my department. I will say there have been implications.

I've certainly felt that a lot of people saw me being accepted for a position, not necessarily here, but just in my past, of being there because I was a woman, and because they needed a token minority. One of those experiences is, I know I'm qualified to be here. I wouldn't be here if I weren't qualified. Yes, perhaps I was looked at more closely because I was a minority, but I wasn't given this opportunity if I wasn't qualified. That's something that's hard to accept.

Yes, I think again, having a network to help you get through it, also, for me, I'm willing to say, "If this doesn't work out, I'm happy to do something else." I think that's the biggest really, for me, is, I'm happy to do something else if it gets to be too much.

Sandrine: What kind of research leader do you want to become in an ideal world? It's like your dream, in a way, environment, to be your best self as a research leader.

Saida: I would like, have a research group in which the students are coming to me with their own ideas, and their own inspirations. With me just being more of a role of, "Oh, did you think about this?" or, "Hey that sounds similar to this other idea, maybe you can try this." Allowing the students to have this environment where they can bring up questions and have their own creativity scientifically.

To also let them feel seen. I think that's the biggest thing is to let them know that they're a person, and they're a person of value, and that they're contributing to the field.

Sandrine: Why do you think it doesn't always happen in term of people bringing their own ideas and not being scared of sharing their ideas? It's something that comes up, where sometime academics feel that there's resistance, or there is- I don't know, people limit themselves in sharing their ideas.

Saida: I think a lot of it is how we're educated. I think education is often passive, where the teacher, the professor is in front of the classroom, and the student is absorbing the material. In that scenario, students don't necessarily see how they can ask questions, or they feel that if they do, they will be interrupting. Often, again, that's how we were taught as well. When we're teaching to our students, we're just repeating that same model. It may not necessarily be the best model to encourage people who aren't typically academically top in their class.

Just because, at one point, you're not necessarily the best student, that doesn't mean you can't do this, but you don't necessarily know how else you can see yourself in this field if you're not getting the grades in the classes. I would say I think it has to do with our education system, and giving the students the opportunity to ask questions, and to know that we're not scary people. One of the hardest things to remember, for me, when trying to do something is, the worst that somebody can tell me is no. You're back to where you were before.

You might as well try. If you have the time and you have the energy, you might as well try. If you don't try, there'll definitely be a no. If you did try, the worst they will tell you is no. They're not going go after you, and be like, "Oh, you're the worst. Never again." It's just, "No, not this time," and so you try it, try again next. Having that, I know for me, that's been the challenge, is, the worst they can tell me is no. That's the scariest thing, and that's okay. Actually, that's scary. We just build it up to be a lot scarier than it is.

I'd say it's having a way of allowing students to be more active in their education. For that, it's a big, big challenge, I think.

Sandrine: It's interesting because, in a way, with the remote learning, and so on, maybe there will be a shift. Often people talk about the blended learning approach, and learning technologies have been going on for a long time about it. That material and lessons are done ahead of the interaction with the lecturer, where the face-to-face interaction is actually much more interactive and dynamic interaction, instead of just delivery. In some ways, maybe the COVID will have a positive impact in that aspect of completely reshaping the way we thinking about teaching. I don't know.

Saida: I think that's a big possibility, that going forward, the teaching is going to be different due to the last year also.

Sandrine: To round off our discussion, some of the last two questions I'd like to ask you Saida, is about, if you were going to do it all over again, what will you do differently? Would you do the things that you may feel that was a mistake, or, why did this didn't workout? Would you still do the same?

Saida: Recognizing that mental health is a problem earlier, I think would probably be what I would hope to try to do differently. There definitely were times in undergrad, in graduate school, it shows up throughout that there were times where I needed help and I didn't necessarily recognize it. That would probably be biggest thing that I would do differently. However, for the most part, I'm pretty happy with the work that I've got, and the efforts I've put in.

Sandrine: If you had a word of wisdom for your young self, what would be that word of wisdom? [chuckles]

Saida: Believe in yourself. I think that would be the word, but knowing myself, it would be hard for me to internalize that. [chuckles]

Sandrine: To round things off, what would be your best tips for female physics students who wants to tackle the world of research and have a go at this career?

Saida: There's an expression, it's, "Fake it till you make it.". There is some truth to that. The example I was given was that somebody was given a fellowship. They went to their advisor, and they were like, "I don't think I deserve this. I don't think I really earned this. I'm not that type of caliber of scientist." They were told, "What do you think makes that caliber of scientist? What do you think?" "There's somebody who, at conferences, will be in the front row, will always ask the question, will always try to talk to the person who's giving the talk. Will always be seeking out more information." Then he's like, "Why don't you try doing that?" They did, and eventually, they found themselves looking back on their career, that they were that person.

They were able to achieve, professionally, the goals of a fellowship level type of scientist. It's one of those things. It's like, even if you don't think you earn it, or you don't think you deserve it, try to see if you can exemplify the skills or the attitude that you admire in people who you feel do meet those requirements. In doing so, you may find that you yourself are what you didn't think you were.

Sandrine: It's been really a pleasure, Saida, to meet you again after quite a few years since you've left the UK. I really wish I could visit you in Florida.

Saida: I wish you could come too. It's great to see you again, and thank you for having me. I hope this serves as useful for those who are going to listen to this talk.

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Sandrine: I hope you've enjoyed the discussion I had with my guest. I'm very grateful to you for listening to our discussion. I hope that you will join me in future podcast. If you have a good story to tell about your life in research and the research environment, please get in touch. I'm always interested in meeting new contributors for the podcast. You can find my detail in the show notes. I really look forward to having you contact me and hear about your stories of life in research.

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