Research lives and cultures

18- Dr Doris Tran- Being kind in your research life

September 13, 2021 Dr Sandrine Soubes Season 1 Episode 18
Research lives and cultures
18- Dr Doris Tran- Being kind in your research life
Show Notes Transcript

Dr Doris Tran is an engineer working in the biomedical field. After an industry-funded PhD, she quickly transitioned to working in industry. Like many PhD graduates, she also had a period of asking herself whether she should do a Postdoc or move into industry. When I asked her what PhD students should do to be able to move more easily into industry, she felt that PhDs are already doing quite enough. She thinks that industry has a role to play in enhancing its openness in identifying the potential of researchers as valuable employees in industry.

When I asked her about tips for researchers to navigate the research environment, she mentioned "kindness". It is not a word we often hear in the research world. Kindness is not an outdated commodity...it is more relevant than ever to challenge the research culture.

Doris now works at Scanco Medical as a product manager and is at the forefront of interacting with academics, not as collaborators anymore but as clients for the devices sold by her company.

I write a blog post for each Podcast episode, inspired by the many themes discussed with my guests. The blog posts prompt you in your reflection journey.

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Hope the transcript is helpful...it may not be perfect but it is better than not having one!

Interviewer: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, dear listener. I've got the pleasure today to be in the company of Doris Tran. Hopefully, I'm saying your name properly. Doris is also a French speaker, and I was saying to her that it's very strange to do an interview with somebody who speaks French and to do it in English. I was telling her that, obviously, my accent is pretty bad, but that's just the way it is, so listeners have got to get used to my French accent. I don't think I can really improve this very much.

Doris, you're coming to this interview through the FIDELIO ITN network that you're involved with. I'm going to run some sessions with some PhD students who are part of this network, and I think that researchers on the network, but also, our listeners will be really interested in your career because you come from an engineering background, and you've done a PhD, and you're now working in industry. It's going to be really interesting to discuss with you about your experiences of navigating this [unintelligible 00:01:07] transition. As a starting point, could you give us a brief overview of your research career or your professional career so far? Where did it all start?

Doris Tran: I guess it started after high school. I wanted to join medical school in France, and started with two years, and didn't succeed the exam--

Interviewer: We have a common point, because I also spent two years studying for the entrance for the medical school exam, and also didn't get in. That's how I got to study biology instead, so we got a common experience there.

Doris: Yes, I can relate. After these two years, I had the opportunity to switch and choose either biology, physics, science at the university for the bachelor degree, and I decided to follow with physics. It was a very rational decision coming from my grades at the exams. I thought, "Where am I good at?" Now, I have to succeed in my studies." Physics was my best field, so I chose physics, with always keeping an eye on the medical side, and how to get back to healthcare and medicine.

After a year in my bachelor in physics, I went to engineering school to study-- I was thinking of going back to medicine and healthcare through biomedical engineering or biomechanics, and that's how it really started. I joined this engineering program, and as engineering is quite a huge field, I just started to give a direction to my studies to reach this medical side again.

Interviewer: At the end of your engineering course, most people in some ways will be expected to then go and work in industry, but you went to do a PhD. Why did you choose this route?

Doris: Well, I guess because in the engineering field, all my classmates were really interested in the-- Maybe common fields of engineering like aeronautics, automobile, cars manufacturing, and all these, and for biomechanics or biomedical, that was more a niche. To get on that topic, my first way was to try to do engineering projects on these things, and I started to discuss more with my professors who had this kind of interest, and maybe it was more thanks to their guidance.

Interviewer: How did you go about choosing where to do a PhD? Because it's always a difficult decision in terms of choosing the topic, choosing the academic to do it with, and sometimes the opportunities that we're thrown at are not necessarily the ones that we want, but we have to make a decision.

Doris: Well, originally, I wanted to have international experience, any kind of international experience, so I-- During my engineering studies, I went for a half year abroad in Montreal, Canada, at the École Polytechnique, because I knew they had a strong biomechanical lab. My plan was to try to get an internship there, but somehow, it didn't work out. I ended up looking for internship in that field in France, either in companies or in research labs. It was an idea that I had for a long time, so I already spotted the labs in France that were doing biomechanics. I contacted the people from the Paris group, and from Lyon, and some other-- A bit smaller groups, and eventually, yes.

It was quite easy when you know what you want to do or in which direction you want to do, then there are not that many places you can go in the end. I started with my master project in Lyon, which was a great experience. It went really well with my project mentor, director, and he offered me the PhD proposal also afterwards. As we had a really good way of working together, it was a quite secured way to start that kind of project.

Interviewer: The PhD is what? Three years in France, four years? I guess it depends on the funding. At the end of your PhD, you chose then to move into the industrial sector I guess, not to do a postdoc. What was the choice in terms of using the experience of the PhD to move into something else?

Doris: Well, at first, my PhD project was funded by a company producing some medical products. During my three years' PhD, I didn't teach at the university as some of my colleagues were doing, but I had this consultant work besides, so it was in the contract somehow-- Like, doing my research project for PhD, and when the company needed consultants or help on their own R&D projects, I was helping there. I thought it was a really good deal for me to have a foot in academic research, and also in the industry.

After my PhD, I stayed in the lab to do half research and half teaching. I didn't feel at that time really comfortable in teaching, but there are many reasons for that. Because it was the end of a big phase in my life with finishing the PhD, and so somehow, maybe I didn't want to commit again that much as I think a teacher should. Yes, somehow, I excluded the teaching path for me, but I was quite open either for a postdoc position, but full-time research, or working in an R&D team in the industry. After that year, or during that year when I was looking for my next position, I was quite open-minded, and I actually did interviews for postdoc and industry both.

Interviewer: What did you choose in the end? Was it just the opportunities that were offered to you or--? Sometimes, we don't have a choice. We need a position, and we just take what's available. How did you make sure that what was offered to you was what you wanted?

Doris: I guess my profile was attractive enough, so didn't feel any pressure in the decision I had to make of leaving an option for another. In the end, I had one offer in a postdoc position, and another for an R&D team in a small company in France. That's where I took very good advice from my PhD director who was asking me at the time, "What do you want to do in the end? Do you want to do a postdoc to do the postdoc? Do you want to do a postdoc to have a better chance to apply for a permanent position in academia afterwards? Or is that just a project that you're interested in, and later on, you will be willing to go towards industry?"

Knowing the difficulties of a professional career in academia, and also how I was not very interested into teaching, which already gives you less opportunity in academia. In the end, I really thought I would finally try to go towards industry. Then he told me, "You can do the postdoc if you like, but if you take the job in the R&D company, then you'll save three years," so-- [chuckles]

Interviewer: That's fair enough. What do you think that you had done during your PhD or during the several years of studies that put you in a really good position to be able to move into industry? Because in your case, I guess having already that experience during your PhD of working for a company I think is really massive, because that's one of the challenges that I've seen many PhD students have in-- Being able to take that first step into industry can be really difficult. Do you think that it was really this single experience of having already been linked with industry that really put you in a good position to be very well-perceived by potential employers?

Doris: Yes, definitely. I think it was a key point because-- Maybe yes and no, because small companies who would hire the PhD profile oftentimes already have PhD employees within their team. They are quite aware of what a PhD is capable of and so on, but there's still this idea for people in the industry-- I guess that this idea is quite strong, at least in France, that people coming from academia are not suitable for industry work because they cannot stand deadlines, pressure, they are not results-oriented, and so on, which are sayings. People with academic experience know it's not necessarily true, but we know that it's what people can say about us.

It's quite difficult. I don't know, maybe the minds are changing nowadays, but still, these sayings were there, and were very strong, and they are still somewhere in the air.

Interviewer: What do you think that PhD students can do to build their experiences during their PhD studies so that the perception that potential employers have is not that they're just PhD graduates, but that they've got richness of competencies that are completely usable and of value to industrial positions?

Doris: I guess for me, the PhD students, they don't have much more to do. It's more from the industry side to be more open-minded. I feel that way, because what a PhD student already does with his project work, learning, and side projects with other people in the labs, it's already huge. Even among all these students, some of them are involved in science for children, and easy science explained for non-scientific people, so many projects, which is great, but-- I guess they have a lot of skills, and the industry needs to be open to recognize it.

Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about what you do now, and in a way, what's your [unintelligible 00:14:36] now in your current position to the type of work that you do?

Doris: Now, I'm working for a small company in Switzerland that manufactures scanners, high-resolution scanners. I am in charge of one of our scanners, which is a medical device. It's the high-resolution, XTreme CT scanner, whatever. My position is called application specialist, and my work is to train our new customers or existing customers to use the device. Like, to help them use the device for research projects, to help them prepare any projects they would do with this device. Because our customers are mainly doctors, without engineering backgrounds, so they are not that handy with software, or scripts, or image processing that is involved in the scanner. I'm being the link between the customer and the machine.

Interviewer: What do you think is the key difference for you between the time that you had in academia, and now working in industry, in terms of the skills that you acquired as a researcher, as a scientist, as an engineer, and now working in your current role?

Doris: If you're talking about the difference in the research work in academia and the work I do currently now in the company, the main difference for me is not to be in charge of a research project, but helping and facilitating. That is for me the great difference, because I am useful for research to be completed, and my participation has direct consequences for this research project without being in charge.

Interviewer: In the context of the research that's done by the company, how is it organized in terms of the roles that different people are taking? You have people who are more on the technical side, and in your case, you work more at the interface between the clients, and basically getting them to use the machines that you're selling. I think that's something that a lot of researchers in academia don't necessarily know, is that-- What does it mean to do research in companies, how different is it?

Doris: Well, in the end, in my current position, I don't do direct research, I guess. I would imagine it's more focused questions or research questions that interest us. I would say the difference is that at the end, there will be actions taken out of the results of this research or applications. Or maybe non-actions or non-applications, but anyway, it will be concretely used to take decisions afterwards. I guess that is the difference between the research in academia where you have maybe more-- You have research questions, but no concrete idea of what will happen afterwards when you get the outcome.

Interviewer: What do you find satisfying in working in your current role compared maybe to the experience that you had as a PhD student?

Doris: I guess I really like to be useful and see the concrete consequences of my work. It's really rewarding, like, "Good girl." [laughs] In the end, I like having a diverse-- Maybe it's due to the settings of my company which is a small one, so I get to discuss with more lab directors or research PIs when they are setting their projects or looking for funding. I am also in contact with masters students or PhD students who need help with more technical research, and then maybe-- Yes, for sure, it brings diversity of questions and levels where I can be helpful, and maybe that is really a good side because it's never the same.

Interviewer: Often, in the research environment, we moan about the challenges faced by people in terms of career progression and moving on in academic career. What is it like to be able to progress your career as a professional in industry? Again, there isn't necessarily a set path. In your case, how do you plan for what's coming next, and how do you prepare yourself in a way to navigate the next level up, or sideways, or--?

Doris: I guess I'm quite a rational person, so I observe a lot, and I guess I-- What I personally do is that I like to discuss with people, and oftentimes, with people with the same kind of careers as mine, and older ones, to see what they dream of, what they feel is possible for them. With all this feedback, I try to find something that suits me. Then I would do my own LinkedIn research and see these dreamy jobs I imagine, and see who gets these jobs, and what they did before to get these jobs. Eventually, the next step would be to get in touch with them and ask for feedback, and see, given my own profile, what should I do, or what could I do to go in that direction?

Interviewer: What do you think is the most challenging about navigating a career as a research professional in industry in terms of taking that next step? What do you think are really the difficulties that people are facing, or maybe difficulties that you have faced yourself?

Doris: It's a tough question. I guess I don't really see it that way-- I guess for me, the most challenging thing is my personal growth in my self-confidence as a professional and as a scientist. I think that was, and still is my main challenge. Coming from a French environment, and maybe as a woman in the scientific field, I guess that was for me, the main challenge with myself, of feeling legit--

Interviewer: Yes, it's something that's very common, and people talk a lot about that. In your case, what have you been able to do to help you, or have other people-- In terms of accessing mentors, and so on, have you been able to be supported by people in guiding you, mentoring you, or bringing opportunities that enable you to grow beyond where you are at now?

Doris: Yes. I guess I was always very lucky in my experiences-- I always had kind and skilled supervisors or colleagues, and mentors, so it helps a lot. It helps developing my own skills, like technical-scientific ones, and it helps also in the more personal way of self-confidence and to grow in that sense. I guess I'm quite lucky I had really good and nice people around me.

Interviewer: The company that you work with does some collaborative work with academics in different universities, what do you think really makes this collaboration work? Because again, that's something that in a lot of countries, the governments really want to enhance the collaboration between academia and industry. Often, there are lots of pressures that are put on academics to do more industrial collaboration, and sometimes, some people may feel that it's a little bit forced, or they're kind of thrown into it without really knowing what they're going to get out of it. Now that you're working in an industrial setting, what do you think academics can do to really make this collaboration work? It's a two-way thing, it's got to work for both partners.

Doris: I guess in my current company, it's quite particular because what we produce, what we manufacture, it is meant and produced for researchers and research labs-- I mean, for the academia, so our customers are these academic researchers. Then, of course, we are involved with them in many projects, and it helps us better understand and see how-to, and what to improve, and which direction to take, but I guess it's not a classical industrial-academic partner collaboration as I saw it, for example, in my PhD thesis, where really, the company funding the project expected some results out of my PhD thesis that they had no means to achieve in their own R&D team.

Interviewer: In terms of these, for example, the academics that you're working with right now, what do you think in terms of, again, sharing wisdom, how they can help this collaboration work better? What do you want to see in the way they're interacting with you that really helps the company work in the best way with them?

Doris: I guess some collaborations, like academic and industrial collaborations, are working well when the interest of each stakeholder is clearly defined and announced and clear for everyone, as well as other means that each part will involve in that project, and be very clear on that. Not that one part would expect a lot of work from the other that already knew they will never involve. Clear communication at first, I guess basics in any type of collaboration.

Clear and honest communication, because that would explain a lot, I guess. If everyone involved in the project understands what it represents for each part, then it's easier to understand and find ways to motivate the other part if needed, or give excuse for delays, all these things, when there's a clear understanding of what's happening there.

Interviewer: What do people need to do to become really excellent colleagues on a team, whether it's a research team or a team in industry, that made them amazing people to work with?

Doris: They were at first very funny, [chuckles] because laughing is the key at work. I guess, in any human groups, again, it's the communication, and-- Maybe not only applicable for research environment, I guess, but I would say working in team or in a group, the team spirit, asking help from others and giving help to others is important. Even if it sounds like a generality, I would say in a research environment, when-- As a researcher, asking help is okay, but one needs to look for himself and do his own research before asking all the time and--

Interviewer: To do their homework.

Doris: Yes, exactly. Everyone has to do his homework first before disturbing someone else. Also, when homework is done, and a colleague is coming to help, in that case, also keep learning from the other, and not simply pass the problem to the other and tell him to solve it for you. Keep participating and learning from the other, because it's time involved for both participants, I would say. For the one helping, teaching something, and the other one receiving help, but learning.

Interviewer: One of the things that I like to ask my podcast interviewee are some tips. In your case, what would be the tips that you will give to early career researchers who may be thinking about moving into industry?

Doris: That one is a hard one too, because everyone is different, and every experience is different, and it's hard to see what could be useful to someone else.

Interviewer: What do you think you've learned in a way-- If you're reflecting on all the professional experiences that you've had, what is the wisdom that you think you could pass on to others who are more junior, based on your own experience?

Doris: I quite enjoyed my whole experience. I'm not sure I would have lived it differently with other advice. Maybe one thing is, be kind with the other people you meet, and maybe take the most of the people who cross your way in your career. Because in research and industry, I guess the world is very small at first, so you don't want to be a bad person or considered in bad ways.

Interviewer: The point that you're making is important because the research niche or the-- We think about the research community as something massive, which it is, but at the same time, people who work in your domain, they knew each other. Whatever interaction that you have, you will create a reputation for yourself, and being a positive contributor within that space is really important.

Doris: Yes, exactly. Well said. [laughs] Yes, I mean, it's not only for the networking and the community that I would advise to be nice and kind, but-- In general, in life, I think it's important, but even more in work environments when they can be [unintelligible 00:32:56].

Interviewer: Thank you, Doris. It's been really a pleasure talking to you.

Doris: You're welcome.

[music]

[00:33:31] [END OF AUDIO]