23- Dr Briony Birdi- Holding on to your values as motivation booster

Briony is a senior lecturer in the Information School at The University of Sheffield.

A commitment to doing research that contributes to giving voice to an area of public life often brushed aside, has fuelled her research motivation. Adapting her professional goals and work patterns to her family reality have been part of her academic resilience.

It was her experience supporting researchers, when she worked in a university library in Oxford as a graduate, that got her the first taste for the research process. With a Master in Librarianship, she initially embarked on a career in the book trade, before starting a research contract in Birmingham. The richness of her professional experiences as a practitioner, contributed greatly to getting her first lectureship. Briony entered academic life having already gained a substantial experience as a researcher. The PhD came after, when she was already working as an academic. Undertaking her PhD whilst lecturing and becoming a mum have meant making hard choices and keeping resilient.

Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking about:

• How you may adapt your academic working patterns to suit different stages of your personal life
• That part-time working does not mean stopping you from daring to apply for leadership roles
• Taking a leadership role in your institution contributes to a rich academic life
• How harsh criticism can fuel your motivation to do the research that you believe matters

Find out more details about Briony: https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/is/people/academic/briony-birdi

I write a blog post for each Podcast episode, inspired by the many themes discussed with my guests. The blog posts prompt you in your reflection journey.

Read the blogpost inspired by the discussion:
https://tesselledevelopment.com/research-lives-and-cultures/briony-birdi

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Get in touch for questions, queries or to suggest a brilliant contributor: sandrine@tesselledevelopment.com

Transcript

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Sandrine Soubes: All right. Let's make a start.

[music]

Sandrine: Good afternoon, good evening, dear listeners. Today, I have the pleasure to have with me Dr. Briony Birdi from the University of Sheffield. She's a lecturer in the Faculty of Social Science in the Department of-- is actually the Information School. Is that right?

Briony Birdi: That is right. Yes.

Sandrine: Welcome on the show, Briony. I met Briony when I was still working at the University of Sheffield. Met a few times. It's really a pleasure to have you on the show. Let's get started by asking you about your career. Can you give us a brief overview of what you've done throughout your career?

Briony: Yes, sure. I started off in French, in an undergraduate degree in French, which was because I loved languages. I worked in France as an English teacher, which I love doing, and realized that I enjoyed the teaching part of it. I wanted to move back to France and have an amazing Francophone teaching career perhaps after doing a master's degree in French, but then things changed and this is what happens in life, isn't it? My dad became very ill and all hopes of going to live abroad had to be shelved so that I could spend time at home.

I went to the Career Service at the university as I was finishing my degree and they told me about an Oxford-based graduate trainee scheme, which was working in the Taylor Institute Modern Languages Library at the university in Oxford. I applied, got the job, and it was a really wonderful experience. This was something I had never thought of doing but it meant that I could keep using my languages because I also spoke Italian. I kept my mind occupied but I learned about the research process. Apart from my undergraduate dissertation, I hadn't really thought about what research was because my role there was to support really amazing researchers in the work that they were doing in quite a low way.

At the same time, I was able to observe what they did, how they did it, the kind of things they used, and I enjoyed the process. That's where via a slightly circuitous route, I decided that research was for me in some form that I also really liked the information side of things. About halfway through that time, my boss told me there were full scholarships you could apply for with the British Academy to do a master's degree that would be in librarianship. They were keen to support me. I went for it and that's how I moved up to Sheffield to do that. That's where all of that started.

First thing is, certainly, where I am now is absolutely not where I thought I would be but I'm sure that's the same for most people. Then I gradually built a research career from that point on. I did work outside, I worked in the private sector as well. I worked for Waterstones and Dylan's booksellers as a junior marketing manager using my, again, my information skills I was organizing book promotions and marketing events and working with libraries and publishers. Very much within that field after three years of doing that, I realized that actually I missed the academic side of things.

I found a research post and joined, came back into academia, went to Birmingham, and started to build things up there. Definitely not a straight route. The other thing that's a bit different about me is that I didn't do a PhD straightaway. I went into research. I was lucky enough that the particular project I worked on, they were looking for someone with a master's degree at least and the professional experience that I had. I was able to join a project without a PhD, which I did feel at a slight disadvantage compared to other researchers but at the same time, they were looking for someone with that work experience that the other PhD students may not have.

It then took me longer to get the PhD and I had to do it while I was working. It was a slightly different route in that way but I don't regret those choices at all. I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I hadn't gone out to work and delayed the PhD in that way.

Sandrine: Can I ask you, Briony, it's really fascinating because very many PhD students jump straight after their degree of their master into PhD studies. In some ways, when we think about career paths in academia, they're not straightforward. Obviously, they're not straightforward their career as well but once you start working in other sector, going back to academia, I'm always surprised, why would people want to come back in such a competitive environment? What's really the inner driver, the motivation of really wanting to work in the sector? The academic path is one that's really challenging.

Briony: That's a really good question. I think, well, two things. One is, I didn't know how competitive it was. I just thought, "Oh, that's nice. People work in universities and do lovely research jobs. I'm sure it's a very nice supportive environment." I had no idea about the challenges. The other thing is, in the other roles I had, I was more a facilitator. I wasn't actually doing the work. I was helping others to be researchers or helping others to set up literature-related events or that sort of thing. It was a little frustrating being at a remove in that way. I wanted to test myself and see if I could do it as well.

The project I joined in Birmingham was, as I mentioned, it was very much for someone with professional experience. It gave me a license to join without looking like an academic at that point. I was a research assistant and one of the parts of that job that they particularly wanted me to do was go and set up partnerships and talk to people and they wanted people with those kinds of skills. I was very happy doing that. I like meeting people. I think it's two parts really. One is, I really wanted to get stuck in myself and see if I could do it. Two was, I honestly didn't fully understand what an academic career was at that point I think, being very honest.

Sandrine: Maybe it's a blessing for many of us getting into academic careers that we don't actually know the full picture of it when we start. Maybe we may decide otherwise when starting your career. Can you tell us what's really been your overall approach in navigating your professional life? I'm particularly interested in the fact that you did your PhD at the same time as working and lecturing. That's really not a very easy way of going about it. Your general approach of knowing which opportunity to take, which job to apply, what's the sort of things that drives the choices that you make?

Briony: I think, again, it's thinking about my interest in research as a process has been the driver. It was the fact that when I did that first French degree, I started to see that I was interested in research. Then when I had the job at the Taylor Institution, I also started to see the research process. The thing that I have been particularly interested in is understanding that process. I've always been very interested in methods as well. That's been something that's steered me towards different disciplines, different research subjects.

Although I have this broad overarching research area as we all do, I have been very fortunate to have opportunities to try different things, to try different topics and different types of research from purely qualitative to purely quantitative to mixed methods, archival work. I think in terms of navigating, it's been more led by interest but also opportunity. For me, one of the most important things is how comfortable I am in a particular area as well.

Sandrine: Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because when we are progressing in the research leadership actually moving into areas of being uncomfortable to push ourselves to work in a different way, or in new methodology, or in a new research area, it's often something that people go for. What do you mean by being comfortable?

Briony: Maybe it's a strange choice of words. It doesn't mean easy. Far from it. For me, it means choosing to work in fields that I think are important and which need a voice. For example, with my own area I work in the area of public libraries, social justice reading, the intersection between those three. Public libraries are never going to be where the money is and nor is minority reading. Social justice to some extent is more attractive now but you still have to find the right angle with that work but they do have the potential to bring about change. They do have the potential for me to identify evidence for or against a particular action or initiative, and that's a huge motivating factor for me.

When I say comfortable, I mean the things that feel that I should be doing. I do admit that I'm in a better position now to make those choices than I perhaps was earlier on, and I certainly have been part of projects that I was not so excited about but I've always got something out of the experience definitely. I think it's very important to work out what you feel comfortable doing that when you leave your office, when you go home, you think that was useful. That was something that I'm pleased to be part of. Whether or not it's the right word that's what I mean by it.

Sandrine: How was it undertaking the PhD alongside having teaching responsibility? I know that a lot of PhD students who are starting their studies early on may also have teaching responsibility but you had a full workload as a lecturer before you got your PhD. How did you negotiate that dual entity of being a PhD student while being a lecturer?

Briony: Yes, I know that was unusual so the way it happened with me is because I'd had quite a lot of research experience, I'd actually led on several projects before coming to Sheffield and successfully applied for funding, recognizing it's a very different landscape now. I was able to have sufficient publications, sufficient funding behind me to apply for a lectureship. That's great but of course the condition of the post was you need to get your PhD as quickly as possible. That's how it worked for me. I recognized I was very lucky in that respect having that opportunity early on but then as you say, it meant that I was doing a PhD at the same time as working full time. It was very much in my own time.

Of course, I tied it very much to the work I was currently doing. I was able to talk about my research and draw from my research and my teaching. It wasn't directly relevant to a lot of the early teaching I did, but it certainly was part of that general area. It meant that I was able to understand also what the PhD students were going through. I could talk to them and we were able to support each other. I also during my PhD became pregnant, so I had my first child in the middle of my PhD, and then I was pregnant with my second child towards the end. I like a challenge. I took those on as well at the same time.

I would say, I think if you have the opportunity to do the PhD in this way, it does work but you are very, very self-motivated. I got next to no supervision but I got an awful lot of very valuable advice from colleagues and that I counted as my supervision. It wasn't formal supervision in that sense. I was a staff candidate, you have different entitlements but I had some very, very useful coffee meetings where people would kindly read drafts for me, and give me the same valuable input that a supervisor would. Yes, it worked in the end. [chuckles]

Sandrine: Some of our listener may be coming from overseas or may be working overseas. Often people may come to do a PhD in the UK or in other countries after being lecturers for a long time. The experience is different because you've already been a lecturer, and you are changing identity by becoming a student. How do you think that the dual identity of being a student and being assessed in a certain way differ than just doing research as you were doing before you entered the program? For me it's the same thing but putting the heart of I'm a PhD student change the dynamic maybe of interaction.

There are loads of dynamics of power between supervisors and student. You always think that you are just doing research and let's try to put the power dynamics away and let's try to have good research conversation. How was it this dual identity?

Briony: I think obviously there is a bit of a tricky path to steer through there but I would say because I was working full-time, I was working full-time so I wasn't doing my PhD at work. I was synchronizing it with my work and I was drawing from it but the actual process of being a researcher, I wasn't doing it at work. Not just because I was being obedient and fulfilling my full-time contract, but also, I just didn't have the capacity to do it at work. It wasn't feasible. I think in that sense I was a lecturer on probation who also happened to be doing a PhD. For example, with my research group that I joined clearly there, there was a bit of an interesting dual role.

Overall, I would say it wasn't particularly difficult in terms of my relationships with colleagues. There was one colleague in particular who I think was my self-appointed supervisor or he was a self-appointed supervisor and we would have long conversations about it within the working day. In that sense, that was the one bit that did fit into my working day, but he never made me feel that I was different in that context from the way that he was with me on modules I was working on with him or that thing. Looking back and I am very grateful to him, he didn't ever make me feel that I was not worthy in that sense because you do have a sense of, it is uncomfortable.

It is a difficult, awkward situation to be in when you are already a lecturer but you don't yet have that PhD. It is a very strange position to be in and you feel that you have to justify your value, your worth to lots of people but for him it wasn't never, ever felt that way. He was genuinely delighted when I got it and always very supportive. I think in a way it's about how you present yourself in that role as well. I essentially didn't really talk about it the process, I didn't talk about the difficulties I was having except with him and I just got on with it really. I would also say I was very lucky because there was a synchronicity between my research and my teaching which a lot of people won't have.

Sandrine: What do you think has been essential in supporting the development of your confidence as a researcher? It's something that I guess we build based on an evolution of ideas, or an evolution of being successful in getting your work published or getting funding. What do you think has been for you the key, this sense of I know what I'm talking about and I believe in my idea and I can put myself out there?

Briony: When I came into this role, I did feel like an outsider in lots of ways, and I was always looking for reasons to be an outsider. I was always thinking, well, I shouldn't speak up in this meeting because I don't have a PhD. I come from a different background. I haven't come up through what everybody seems to call the normal route to academia. I always felt like a bit of an imposter in that sense. At the beginning I would say my confidence was a little shaken by that shift into academia. I haven't said but it is the case that when I first came, I did think, have I done the wrong thing here?

There was definitely a period where I thought I'm not sure it's going to work for me. The stark difference between previous jobs and this job was that you are listened to much more easily in the outside world. In academia, you have to be in a certain position to be heard. You have to find your space to be heard and you have to communicate in a certain way, whereas I think that I had people listen to me more easily maybe. I had to learn how to communicate slightly differently here. I think it's a gradual process. I've tried and I've learned different methods and approaches. Research methods that's been, as I mentioned, that's a really strong interest of mine so that I can fit better into different research teams.

I think I've got lots of transferable skills and also interests and knowledge, and I can fit into different conversations more comfortably. Working with people outside my discipline has given me a lot of confidence because that means I can then see things from different disciplinary perspectives, taking different opportunities to talk about my research as well. Internal university-based seminars and events are really useful because you will meet people from other disciplines. External events that are not necessarily the peer reviewed conferences but the smaller events where you can get constructive feedback from people who are not competing for the same things that you are in your academic role.

I think those things have gradually given me confidence that I'm worth listening to, and that I have something to say. It is about another really important thing is that is about translating what you do for different audiences as well. As I said before, that was the challenge I had in coming into this environment. I felt, I'm not the right fit here and it took a little while to get my head around what I needed to do.

Sandrine: Who do you think was, or who or what do you think was the most helpful in supporting you in this transition? You said that you didn't have a formal PhD supervisor. Many researchers I've spoken to say my PI, the principal investigator I'm working with when people are post-doc or the PhD supervisor is highly influential in shaping who I have become as an academic, as a researcher. For you, what have been the key experiences that you've had, or the key opportunities that you've taken or the key mentors that you've surrounded yourself with?

Briony: I've really learned from others. Again, I think it's about finding people that you can trust and that you can work with to get constructive feedback. Constructive is the important thing that we are not ever pretending our work is perfect, but there is way to give feedback. I think it's that phrase, you choose your allies as well. You find people who you feel comfortable with, who you can trust, and who will not then go and claim your ideas as their own. Practitioners in the library and information world, there are many people who I have regularly asked for advice, does this sound right?

For teaching, is this something that you would find useful, if I'm going to work with the students on this area, in external research roles, people whose work and leadership approach that I've admired. What I admire in other people is usually things that relate to how collaborative they are, how particularly inclusive they are, how they're not afraid to confront some of the more difficult issues, and just people who are impressive in terms of the changes they make in their role. That's a real variety, and it certainly isn't the most senior people I've worked with necessarily. It's people with different levels of skills and expertise and often people skills that I really admire as well.

Sandrine: It's fascinating because often people who do not have necessarily very senior role, and who may even undermine themselves the contribution that they make, but can through their approach to working with others actually have really significant impact. I see that with so many PhD students who really completely like confidence in what they bring and completely confidence in the impact that they can make. From what you're saying, based on the interaction in the way that they may be interacting with others, actually the impact that they have can be very significant.

Briony: Yes, absolutely. That is the most difficult to understand in academia, I think because it is so set up to be a hierarchy and also a process. I don't mean that we shouldn't listen to our supervisors and our senior colleagues at all, but there needs to be a two-way conversation there, and remembering that when you're doing your PhD at that point, you are the most knowledgeable person about that subject. You will know far more about it than your supervisor. That's the thing that we often forget. I have to admit to all the students that I supervise, that they know far more about this, and by the end of the process, they will know so much more about it than I do.

I can advise them on methods, I can advise them on process. I can add in to knowledge about the subject, but they are becoming the expert. Then it's about the confidence that you then gain from that, but I also recognize that there is a certain dismissiveness about what a post doc can contribute and that people feel it takes such a long time to get to a point where they're properly listened to. That will only change with more collaborative working environments where supervisors can be a little more humble and admit that there are things that maybe they don't know about this subject.

Sandrine: One of the things that's really interesting in the way that you've navigated your research life is that you currently, maybe I don't know whether it's still the case but you've been working part-time. Obviously in the context of the pandemic, having a part-time contract probably doesn't actually mean that you're working part-time because of all the changes that people have faced. Can you tell us about making the decision to work part-time, and the way that you've had to negotiate that within your own family context, and also in the context of your head of department, and how it's influenced your ability to do the work that you want to do and your progression?

Briony: I worked full-time until I had my first child, and then I sat down and talked for a long time with my husband about this. At that point, remember, I was still doing my PhD, but I was working full-time, so there were those choices as well should I pause the PhD, because it wasn't obviously a traditional PhD in that sense of having it. There was a registration period of course, but that's it. There wasn't really any of the other mechanisms you'd normally associate with a PhD program where you have maternity leave and that kind of thing. I didn't really feel at that point that going part-time was anything I had a choice about.

It felt that that was the only way I was going to be able to come back and finish the PhD in my own time, and also not have my daughter in nursery all hours of the day.

I was completely prepared to go to that, if it wasn't going to work, she would be put perfectly happy in the nursery I'm sure, and it was really my own desire just to have her with me a little bit more. It didn't feel like a choice at that point. I reduced my hours from full time to 0.6, and I stayed at that level for, I think four or five years. Then I went up to 0.8 because 0.6 was fine at that level but once I got the PhD taken on leadership responsibilities and got quite a significant teaching role, I needed more time if I was ever going to do any research.

I got a good research grant and thought I can't do this. I needed to go up to 0.8. That's where I then stayed for another few years. It's only in fact in the last year that I've gone to full-time. It's one of those things that I've talked to lots of people about, and people say it doesn't work, does it being an academic and being part-time? I think on Sundays, I will say, no, it doesn't because you're not really part-time, but then academics work hard odd hours as well. Any academic works odd hours, so if you are prepared and you are able to have that flexible approach, then you can make it work.

My husband is fantastic, he's made his own sacrifices in terms of reducing traveling for work and staying away from home, picking up from school, we do that between us. He didn't feel able to cut his hours, so he's stayed full-time throughout, but we've managed to situation very well between us. The kids know we're there for them as much as we can be, but we also can focus on the career. That maybe sounds a bit glib but it isn't, and it's been a long, tough time with many points where I've said, I'm not sure I can keep doing this. I'm not sure I'll ever get anywhere because I'm basically treading water and doing what I'm absolutely supposed to do, and I have no space to be creative and develop new research.

I think it did stifle my creativity for a period. It took me a little while to get back on my feet, but it is possible and you can do it. We don't have the option of grandparents or extra care there. We just knew what we had and what we were able to do. We used childcare vouchers from the university to the maximum and so holiday clubs, after school clubs and all of those things that other parents do and you work it out. If it isn't working, then you adjust it. You adjust it up or down in terms of your hours, and I completely take the point that you made about flexible working isn't always that flexible, but it does sometimes take a while to come to that point where it more or less works for you most of the time.

Sandrine: Do you think that it has an influence on your ability to progress in your role? You are already a senior lecturer, so in a way maybe it hasn't impacted at all, but in term of the opportunities that you were offered in the department, did the fact that you were part-time for a period, was it perceived that opportunities were not offered because the department is saying, "Oh, she's part-time so we are not giving her that opportunity" or was it not the case?

Briony: It's difficult to know really. It's difficult to know what would've been different. Certainly, I'm someone who's always had quite significant leadership roles, and certainly recently I don't feel that being part-time has stopped me from applying for things, or for putting myself forward for things but the difficulty that then leaves you with is something will have to give at some point so it is always research. If you're working on a project, that's fine because that's funded and you can do that, but it's the new research. It's the getting new research off the ground that is difficult and there are a number of opportunities I will have missed.

I can think of some, but other opportunities I will have missed without maybe realizing there are papers that haven't been written because I've had to focus on the leadership or the teaching. Yes, undoubtedly that has, I would say slowed, but not stopped the progression. Applying for a chair is an objective, but that needs, that has been put on hold by some of the additional leadership roles, which will help with the application but have not helped me to continue with research on the scale I wanted to. Yes, I would say it doesn't have to stop you from progressing, but it certainly makes it more difficult.

I think I have had some interesting comments where I have talked to colleagues and said "I was thinking of going for a promotion." "Oh, I didn't realize you were interested in your career because you're part-time." Those comments stay with you, and if you're not careful they start to define you and you start to believe them, but hopefully they're also a motivating factor because you think, excuse me, I will show you. I will go and apply and I will be successful. The nice thing with that is that there are very few women who are part-time who have got through to the next level.

I am regularly asked for my CV, and I do regularly talk to people in almost all cases, women about progression at part-time, and how you put your case forward and look as if you are serious about a career, even though you're not working full-time necessarily.

Sandrine: One of the things that you just said, how you put your case forward is an important one, because I think that for many, they may do a huge amount of work in terms of the way they're contributing to the department and their broad engagement and so on. In any promotion case, the way that you talk about yourself, the way that you are articulating the impact of what you do, the value that you bring is absolutely key. From doing these things what's really, really key in the way that you are presenting what you offer? How do you make yourself visible? I think that there is a pattern of women doing amazing stuff, but not making it visible or doing amazing research and not really putting themself enough out there.

Briony: For me, it's one of my interests, but also one of the things I think is most important is how I engage outside the university, how I engage with others, and so being visible is not necessarily for me. I realize that my discipline is a little different, but I don't want to just sit on the campus and just work with academics. I want to test ideas with collaborators, and I want to learn from practitioners about what they're doing and what they need to know about. I will identify research topics by working with people and saying, what do you need? What gaps are there? It helps you with your research, it helps you with your teaching, but it also helps you to become more visible and to demonstrate an impact in different ways.

I'm not talking about impacting rough terms necessarily, although it may contribute to that. That's always been really important to me and identifying people who want to know what I'm doing, and who I want to know what they're doing. It's going to conferences, yes but it's also going to practitioner seminars and being the only academic in the room who is there to learn and listen. It's translating what you do into practice, or into terms that work in different contexts as well then you become more visible.

The measure of success of that visibility for me is when I'm then asked back to advise or to comment on, or to help to draft the strategy or to contribute to a different process. It shows me that, what I do has some value, some worth in that field, which is what I need to know.

Sandrine: Can I ask you, you will have faced many challenges throughout your career and things that have hindered and others that have helped your career. What's been your way of going over these barriers that have been in your way? For me, the key question is how have you built your resilience in the academic space?

Briony: Does anyone really feel resilience in academia goodness. It is a word we use so much, isn't it in this context where we are offered opportunities to go on courses to learn to be more resilient. We talk to research students about the need to be resilient in their careers. There are obvious ways in which we need to be resilient. I see my own resilience having developed in how I respond to feedback now. I have had, as we all have times where I have had negative feedback. On the one hand, we've got things like peer review for journal submissions or grant applications. That's easier to deal with because we don't have the person in front of us.

We don't see that person. An example of where I have definitely had my resilience test is I remember meeting a senior academic who I respected and valued their work, but almost in passing, they said, "Of course, your area of research is dead in the water. You might need to move in another direction fairly soon." It was almost said in passing so that I almost didn't react at the time, and it took me probably only a few seconds, but a little while to just say, "Hang on a minute, what did you say? You really think this is dead?" "Of course, it is. No, no, I don't mean anything by it." We had this conversation and I essentially lost the argument there, and I moved away from this and went back to my office and sat down.

Within about an hour, I'd written a blog post which was called, I think I called it something like 'Library research is dead in the water'. It was essentially providing a defense of this. From that, it got a lot of very positive feedback. I wrote a piece in the conversation and got a lot of interaction from colleagues, practitioners, and academics who were saying, "This is exactly the thing we're up against in this field because we're working in an area that is underfunded, a research area and the practitioner area that's underfunded. That is exactly why the research is needed." I think that is probably one of those almost turning points where I thought, no, this is why I'm doing it and almost bring it on, come back with more of this. I can handle it.

It was one of those points where my initial disappointment at talking to someone I thought she'd be more supportive of my area actually turned into a motivating factor to use this. I have used that a number of times and referred back to that blog, and used it to frame conference presentations and discussions. It hopefully helps those to be more resilient in this slightly challenging area that is not a sexy a research topic.

Sandrine: In a way, it shows that knowing your values when you do research is really helpful because you knew what really mattered in the way that you wanted to contribute. Even though a passing comment could have completely derailed you in terms of, oh, yes, I should not carry on in that. Actually, you knew what's mattered to you and it gave you an impetus to think deeply about the questions that you needed to ask in that context.

Briony: Yes, definitely. Funnily enough, in a way, I'm grateful that that interaction happened because it definitely gave me some energy, initially upset, then anger, and then just energy to carry on in this area. I'm not ready to step down yet.

[laughter]

Sandrine: How do you negotiate personal and professional goals? I don't really like conversations about the work-life balance because I don't believe there is such a thing. I think, we, especially as academics, everything is so intermingled. How do you bound the time that you put into your academic efforts so that there is space for other things in your life?

Briony: We've already talked about my PhD. When and how to do my PhD was some form of negotiation in that sense, working part-time, having two children, working out a way to be promoted or to apply for a promotion when part-time. Taking on a faculty leadership role, but still trying to find time in all that to be with the children. Not just picking them up and dropping them off. I think there was a period where that's all I was doing. I was thinking in a very mechanistic way about all I can do today is drop them off, pick them up from whichever school or nursery and that's it. Whereas now I have definitely moved to a place where I can be more in the room.

I'm not always thinking of work, although I think maybe they might question that sometimes. I'm talking to them properly. I'm watching them develop and grow. If I hadn't adjusted my professional goals from the early days, I would probably be feeling very unfulfilled now and very dissatisfied at lack of progress, but I have adjusted them and that's not the case. I agree entirely. There is no balance. Some days there is no balance at all, but overall, there is a balance. I've had times where I've negotiated with my husband, should I carry on? Can we do this? Can we afford one salary? Then realizing actually that's not the answer. That's not what I want anyway.

Compromises are inevitable. We all feel trapped at times. There have been times where I've thought, I can't leave because this is where I am. This is where the children are. This is where my husband works. Then you come to a point of being at peace with this, and we're negotiating, we're making choices all the time. It's just understanding which ones we have at that particular point in your life. Yes, a lot of negotiation, and I think being open to adjust goals according to different things that happen to you as well.

Sandrine: The negotiation is obviously is really difficult, and I find really fascinating, the thing about adapting your goals. How do you yourself reframe your professional desire so that you don't have a sense of dissatisfaction of, no, I can't achieve that goal and more a reframing of saying, well, maybe that's what I may mean, but it may take me longer. Or I'm going to go to an alternative route, because the reframing of goals? I think is something that we need to be able to be resilient and to feel happy within yourself, otherwise, we may always live with a sense of frustration. What have you done yourself to be able to be at peace with the reframing that you may have had to do over the years?

Briony: Early on I assumed that I would just keep moving upwards, that if I won the next grant, if I got the paper published in the journal, everyone thought we should publish it. If I did enough to merit a promotion to the next grade, and those things are still important, they still motivate me but I think my rewards look different now. What I've done or what I've realized is that I'm more rewarded, when I'm asked for advice, and when I can see that people find my advice helpful. That might be as an external examiner for a master's program or a PhD, fiver might be an external advisor to educational policy or benchmarking documents as an advisor to the professional body for my discipline about a new ethical framework or an anti-racism policy, for example.

I think being successful to me now is knowing that people want me to share the knowledge that I have and sharing the lessons I learned. Don't make the mistakes I did, let's work together to develop a new way. Genuinely I've realized that's what makes me happier now than constantly aspiring to something I may never achieve. In any case, will it actually make me feel happier, or more rewarded. It's hard to articulate that kind of thing because it's an internal, it's a feeling and it's not something that's going to get me promoted that realization necessarily, but it does tell me why I came into this field in the first place. That's a nice conclusion to it in that sense.

Sandrine: A question that I really like asking people is about how daring they've been. How daring have you been in establishing yourself in your field or as an academic? What does daring mean to you in the way that you've lived your professional life?

Briony: My initial reaction to the word daring is, I haven't been daring in any way, but I think perhaps I have made sure that I've asserted myself and defended my position. The example about someone saying my research was dead in the water, I certainly did that. My position on social justice, for example, in bringing out key themes in my research applications and the way I undertake my research projects, I have learned that I'm more comfortable asking difficult questions than leaving a meeting, not having done that. It doesn't necessarily make you friends with everyone, but it's a necessary driver.

I'm a White woman in a White university. I have more to lose than some being a woman and having been part-time, but I have a lot less to lose than others. I think it's important that I use that, use that to speak up and to not just to ask questions, but also to try and answer them as well so that the EDI role has been really useful in helping me to come into that position as well.

Sandrine: For those who don't know what EDI means, it's Equality, Diversity and Inclusion. You've had the role of director of EDI in your faculty for a number of years now. What's been really the most challenging in term of you wanting to make an impact for your faculty in that area?

Briony: Firstly, I would say, it's not just me because I work with a co-director, Tony Williams, we share the role. We're a big faculty, so social sciences faculty at Sheffield has 13 departments, so it's a large space to work within. When we came into this role, it was a new role. There was previously no structure, no EDI governance at faculty level or departmental within social sciences. Now we have 13 departmental directors, people with workload allocation who sits on the departmental exec committee and have a voice in their departments. That's a huge change going through and seeing the changes that you can make within your department has been so rewarding.

We've got substantive work going on in relation to the gender pay gap and in relation to the race equality strategy and delivering the action plan. I think the main change that I'm proud of is that at the beginning of our time, we weren't really included in the conversation as we are now. Neither of us is a professor. We're both at the same level but we sit at the table at the faculty exec meetings. EDI work is part of the departmental and faculty planning, and it's definitely moved beyond the tick box approach. There's still a huge amount to do. Yes, it's been very challenging and there have been some very tricky times where I thought, no, this isn't ever going to work, but some progress is now tangible.

It's being made but this is not something you can ever be complacent about because we'll never achieve it. It will always be a work in progress. It's quite difficult being in a leadership role where you are essentially the most junior person, but we seem to have through time and showing people that we have something to say, we seem to have made some progress there.

Sandrine: What do you think in term of changing these institutional practices? What do you think is the biggest hurdle in the dream of what you wanted to achieve when you started that role and some of the ingrained practices that hinder the work in that area?

Briony: There's so many things aren't there really?

Sandrine: It is a beast.

Briony: It is a beast definitely. I mean there are not simple they're complicated, but straightforward ideas such as having fair and objective recruitment processes. We can see there where there's been a move towards taking positive action were helpful, which was not really considered before, so that ways in which to address the balance and provide opportunities for people from less typical vessel group style, academic and socioeconomic backgrounds. Secondly, I suppose once people they're here having proper induction, on-going training which supports that staff member to have the same opportunities as anyone else.

Sometimes in universities we say, but of course this opportunity is available to everyone. Anyone can apply for that, but in reality, not everyone will feel that they can apply. Not everyone will feel that they are from the right background to apply. Are we encouraging them enough to do that? Are we making sure that career development is going to be taken seriously, even if they're not from a long line of Oxbridge students? I think the other thing is that over the years I've seen many of the same faces having the conversations.

Whether that's at conferences, research, dissemination, that sort of thing but there has been some improvement and diversification in recent years, but there are still some actions we can take ourselves to improve those things. For example, if now I'm invited to speak at a panel event at a conference, I ask about the composition of the panel in the first instance, and then I say that I won't take the place of a BAME speaker who could contribute to the same session on the same topic. It's fine to consider me, but after other speakers have been identified.

I think that's important for me and quite easy for me because there is usually a diversity related strand to what I'm talking about. It would not be appropriate for me to do anything else. I think that's really important, but I do acknowledge that something like that isn't as easy if you are at an earlier stage of your career and understandably very keen for your work to be visible, but it's certainly something that people in certain positions can and should do, I think.

Sandrine: How do you see your role as you build yourself as a research leader and are a very influential contributor to the research culture, if you think about, I am a leader in an institution. What is it that I want to achieve to really create a research environment that is supportive so that other people can thrive? People may enter academia, but what you want is for them to be successful. What is really at the crux of creating a culture that is supportive of a diverse background?

Briony: Although I've had senior leadership in experience now, I don't see myself as an experienced research leader. In terms of building a supportive culture, definitely I aim to be someone who doesn't take the credit for someone else's work, who tries to support more junior colleagues in negotiating their space. I would like to think I'm someone who listens, who gives constructive feedback and tries not to judge which isn't always easy of course, We all have our biases and our leanings but also someone who in advising is hopefully a role model in some ways, and not just a self-appointed leader.

I'm more senior to you therefore I have the voice and that I hope certainly, I believe that has always been my approach. I will have slipped up, I will have made mistakes but that's the overarching thing that I try to do. I certainly, I wouldn't see myself as an experienced research leader because I think my research career it's been really interesting. I've really enjoyed it so far, but because of my almost my late start, it's taken longer for me to get to those positions. I've been PI on several projects. I've seen a number of great PhD students through their PhDs. I've led research groups in other ways, but I am not perhaps at that level that I am in leadership in other ways.

Sandrine: Briony it's been really a pleasure to be discussing with you. I've taken a lot of your time. The final question that I will have for you is about what you will tell your young self. If you were going to do it all over again what would be the words of kindness that you would tell your young research self in term of how could you make the journey a little bit easier?

Briony: The obvious thing is have more confidence in what you do. Have a thing you are known for. It took me a long time to articulate that this was the area I worked in. I think I was nervous to say, this is my area, the social justice and libraries for me. At the same time, be prepared to try other areas of work. That relates to confidence. Don't say yes to everything, just to be a good citizen. Soon you'll realize that others are more strategic and this can lead to resentment. Don't assume everyone else from a more typical academic background is better than you or knows more about the subjects. They don't necessarily than me, but they don't necessarily.

The other one for me, the really important point for me, I've mentioned the importance of collaboration, but also look outside the department you're in or the center you're in or the group you are in. It took me to reach almost desperation point and a feeling of isolation after certain colleagues had left and moved on before I did it, but actually it was the best thing I did. Great collaborators can be found in surprising places and that's how you start to build your confidence. I wish I'd done that sooner.

Sandrine: Thank you so much, Briony. It's been really a pleasure having this conversation with you. I'm very grateful. Thank you.

Briony: Thank you. It's been great. Thank you.

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