61- Dr Sara Vasconcelos- Starting with curiosity

Dr Sara Vasconcelos is an Associate Professor based at the University of Toronto in the Institute of Biomedical Engineering with a research team in the Toronto General Hospital: University Health Network (UHN). Her research focuses on tissue engineering approaches to address cardiovascular problems. Imagine getting your first grant as a PI and not been able to take it because of visa issues for your partner. That’s the arduous path Sara found herself on, before moving to Canada.

Imagine getting your first grant as a PI and not been able to take it because of visa issues for your partner. This is what happened to Sara, who had gained her first grant as a PI while working in the US. Sara had the modesty and courage to go back to a Postdoc position, before applying for a second time to gain independent funding and be able to start a research group in Canada.

Her early experience of the research process at the start of her PhD in Brazil taught her to be meticulous in the planning of experimental work. The level of funding for research is highly uneven across the world and the more limited access to research funding in these early years of her PhD shaped her discipline in being thoughtful during experimental design.

The scope of her learning expanded during her PhD as she was given the opportunity to work in part in the US; the more generous funding situation in the US allowed her to think differently about her research.

As a foreign scientist, learning to work and write in English were important stages in her professional development; she enjoyed learning about different cultures.

Her US PhD mentor in Alabama invited her to come back for an additional research visit before she transitioned to a Postdoc in Kentucky. The Postdoc period was a transition for her work from in vitro to in vivo research.

An ongoing source of support has been a buddy group she is part of, with other women. They meet once a month and support each other to navigate the wave of challenging situation in their academic progression. Protecting time and managing priorities remain one of the biggest challenges. Her buddy peer group is an important anchor when facing the tumultuous time of a building a research team.

Sara feels that the early years of building her team were easier when she still had a small team. Now, with an expanding team, finding a way to manage the many institutional and research demands whilst maintaining a high level of support for her team means revisiting her approach to leading her group.

As a busy research group leader who still wants to hear the details of each research project she supervises, but with new global responsibilities as a team leader on larger multi strand projects, Sara’s approach to supervision, delegation and research leadership is fast evolving.

Sara shares that for her, managing well researchers is about starting from a mindset of curiosity in the way she engages her team member, not assuming that what would work for her will work for others. 

Questions are the pivots of good supervision and research management. 

Questions take us away from making assumption. 

Questions create a space for others to think.

Questions build ownership.

Questions allow clarity in communication.

As a more senior academic, Sara is now involved in institutional committee work. Making change happen in committee work can be incredibly challenging. Sara has learned that having partners/ champions on committees and steering groups help to promote the agenda of what you think need to change. Creating partnership with others to build more voices to influence change is part of what Sara is doing in furthering her leadership involvement.

Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking:

• What is your approach to adapting to setbacks when things your really wanted to

Transcript

Sandrine: 0:00

Okay. Let's get started. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, dear listeners. I'm Sandrine Soub, your host, and you're on the podcast research lives and cultures. Welcome on the show.

Sara: 0:24

Well, thank you very much, Sandrine. It's very good to be here.

Sandrine: 0:28

So you are, your name is Sarah and I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit scared of pronouncing your, your, family name. So Vasconcellos or it's what's the right way of pronouncing it.

Sara: 0:40

Vasconcelos. So yeah, Sara Nunes Vasconcelos.

Sandrine: 0:44

So it's a name that comes from where? What's the origin of this name?

Sara: 0:48

So I'm from Brazil, Portuguese speaking,

Sandrine: 0:51

So did you did you grow up there or did you grow up in Canada?

Sara: 0:56

so I grew up in Brazil, actually, and most of my life, well, at this point, I have to do the math, but I spent most of my life in Brazil. I, I I went to university there as an undergraduate and master's student and then for my PhD, I started it there and then got a scholarship to go to the U. S. Thanks. To do part of the PhD. Then I went back to Brazil to defend, then back to the US for some postdoctoral work, then Canada, where I'm, I've been for the past 13 years.

Sandrine: 1:32

Okay. And at the moment, so you work at the University of Toronto. And can you tell us the department that you're in at the moment?

Sara: 1:41

so my main appointment is actually at the University Health Network, so it's the hospital's and I also have an appointment with the University of Toronto, the department of actually it's the Institute of Biomedical Engineering and the Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology.

Sandrine: 1:57

So from, from the small amount that you've already shared with me, it's it seems that you, you've been very daring in, taking opportunities and changing country and going back and forth. So maybe let's get started in term of what's made you want to do research. So when you started your PhD, what was the original impetus or desire to want to do research?

Sara: 2:23

So when I went to university as an undergrad I, I took an undergrad in biology and we had the opportunity to experiment with different areas. Right. And when we got to kind of like biomedicine and cell biology, that was really interesting to me. We had a hands on lab. on growing cells and making them attach and how you figure out what part of the protein is important for them to attach by doing like competition assays. And, and that to me was just so cool. I was like, how can we, you know, this, this is so cool. This is amazing. And I didn't even know much about research until then. So it was from these kind of like summer volunteering opportunities and then throughout the year that I learned about research. And then I was hooked, right? I joined the lab as an undergrad, officially did my thesis. So I already knew this is what I wanted to do. And and had the opportunity, right? To pursue that dream and, and, and continue doing research. I started working with blood vessels, so cells from the blood vessels how they grow and how to make more of them, which is also something we still do to this day, right?

Sandrine: 3:40

What was the approach that you had in terms of really choosing the topic and choosing the person to work with? Because who we choose as a PhD supervisor matters greatly in terms of this first few years in research that are really critical in, in shaping the path that we take.

Sara: 3:58

That's true. I think it was a little bit of a a coincidence, right? Like, oh, this is available. I'm going to give it a try. And I really liked it. My, my undergrad mentor, who ended up being my graduate mentor as well. She was very pragmatic and that, you know, works really well with me. We're like, this is what you need to do. Let's, let's do it. So there wasn't much like dreaming about science and, and in Brazil too. The funding situation, it was completely different, right? It's very hard. So, you know, when you run an experiment, you really have to think through all the different things because the reagents are really expensive. It takes time to import them. Maybe now it's, it's a little bit better in terms of importing things, but you know, even like an antibody, if you're trying to get an antibody, it's, it's, it's a lot of time. So we really needed to plan things. And, and You know, I just, I know I can plan really well. I enjoy that part, crossing things out of my list, you know, so, and the research was exciting. And then as I progressed through undergrad and I, you know, took different courses, they were interesting as well, but I didn't find a lab that, you know, had the opportunity and was aligned with what I wanted to do. So it was, a mix of my interests and what was available at the time.

Sandrine: 5:27

And so, you did completely your PhD in Brazil. And so when was the first time that you went to work abroad?

Sara: 5:35

So it was during my PhD. So in Brazil, we had they changed the name recently. It's called the, I think science without borders. So you could get a a scholarship to go abroad to do part of the work. And that's what I did. So at the time I went to Birmingham, Alabama to do a year of research on attachment to the extracellular matrix. and focal adhesions and how the cells move in their environment, which was, you know, aligned with what I was studying in, in my thesis. And it was going to be a nice compliment. And that was an amazing experience because it's a totally different way of doing science, right? Like, Funding wasn't a limitation, although the lab I went to wasn't you know, one of the best funded labs, I guess, but, you know, there was lots of money. So you're thinking is totally different, right? So it's What is the best experiment I can do to show this? Or how can I show this multiple different ways? So it was a great learning experience, but also the language and the culture, right? Which is something that I also enjoy a lot. Learning about the culture and, and, and English for me. You know, it still is a limitation. So I, I usually start early to make sure I'm ready. Cause it takes time. Sometimes my brain can only think in Portuguese.

Sandrine: 7:02

I mean, I can understand that. Also, I have worked for so many years in English and still, when English is not your first language, no, I get that. So you did that, year in Alabama and then what came next?

Sara: 7:15

So then I went back to to Brazil to defend my thesis, right. To finish, wrap it up and defend. I had to take a year off. Because I had a health concern, so I had to undergo treatment, so, and then, you know, I defended my thesis, and it kind of all worked well and then my mentor from Alabama invited me to come back to spend another year to wrap up my thesis. the paper and that kind of stuff. And that's what I did while I, you know, thought about where I wanted to be in terms of the doing a postdoc, right, in a different area. And I, I, I remember I wanted to do more in vivo work, right? So most of the work we used to do was in vitro. And I had this curiosity, particularly related to regenerative medicine, right? So, you know, there's no regenerative medicine without in vivo experiments, right? So I wanted to explore that. So I interviewed different labs and found a lab in, in Kentucky that I decided to To go to, to learn some of that in vivo work about growing vessels and et cetera.

Sandrine: 8:29

So what was your approach in terms of finding this postdoc? You know, people have different strategies. Some people just apply for open position, others just reach out to various people that they want to work with. So in your case, what was the strategy that you had?

Sara: 8:44

So I actually applied to open positions. I've found that I didn't attend a lot of conferences cause that's another venue too, right? You can approach people, you can ask them to come to your poster or you can, you know, show them what you do and then you can have a nice conversation. I didn't have a lot of opportunities to do that during that part of my training. So. I mostly applied to positions that were open and in the end, I was between going to Bordeaux or Kentucky. And everyone was like, I can't believe you chose to be in Kentucky if you could go to Bordeaux. And, and again, it brings back to that, you know, the work was exciting. Both works were exciting. But, you know, I enjoyed the work more, you know, like it was more exciting to me, the work that they were doing in Kentucky and English again, right? Like if you have to write your grants, if you have to write your papers, everything needs to be in English. You know, exposure is really important. So that weighed heavily on how I, I, I, I made a decision.

Sandrine: 9:50

And again, these are balances of, you know, life choices in terms of personal life and also the opportunities that we have in terms of, is this good for my career? What am I going to gain and balancing all these elements,

Sara: 10:05

Exactly. And I had the you know, biggest luck of having a spouse that supported my decisions and, and, you know, was there for the ride and enjoyed it. Also probably hated at times, right? Like it's like all the,

Sandrine: 10:19

change location. Yeah. Multiple times. Yeah.

Sara: 10:22

Right. It's challenging. So it's challenging on everyone involved.

Sandrine: 10:28

you then progress into, The position that you have now, What were the stages to become a PI?

Sara: 10:37

that's a great question. So I took the backdoor approach to becoming a PI. So in this lab that I was in Kentucky I was really lucky to have the support and the opportunity to apply for one of those transitional grants. So in the end I applied for this American Heart Association Used to be called scientist development grant. So you write a grant and you propose a research and they'll give you money to do it. And and that was amazing. So we would put a grant in, I got funded. But we realized that in me transitioning into a PI in the U S there would be visa limitations to my spouse. That would prevent him to work. And I thought it was funny, the whole conversation, because, you know, some people don't, don't go through this, and it's like, well, what do you mean, you know, you can't work, right? It's like well, no, actually you can, he can work, it's just he can't get paid. Yeah, I know. But once you get your green card and back then it took 10 years to get a green card. So we're talking about having someone sit right out of the market for, you know, God knows how many years. Right. So it just, wasn't feasible. So that's where a little bit of planning and serendipity comes in. When I, when I went back to Brazil the first time after I, we left, I thought I didn't fit in anymore there. You know, it was like, I love the place and the family, family is there, but it's just the quality of life is. Right. It's not good. You had to drive hours because you know where the university is and where you can live where it's reasonably safe. It's, you know, two different worlds. And so through that we had applied to the immigration system in Canada. Figuring, you know, like we really, we really want to move away. Right. So when, when that happened and, and I figured, okay, so then. If we can't work, we can't do this. And then at that time, we got our permanent residency in Canada. So we're like, okay, just we'll find a job and we'll move to Canada. And that's exactly what happened. Like my husband found a job in a few months and I got another postdoc, which was like the last thing you want when you were just, You know, really about to, you know,

Sandrine: 13:06

transition. Yeah.

Sara: 13:07

right. But it worked out well and I had the opportunity to reapply here in Canada. So I've applied to the Heart and Stroke Foundation and, you know, got the grant funded again. And that's when my lab really started.

Sandrine: 13:23

from what you're describing, it's really fascinating because we often talk in terms of you know, research careers being international careers, but the reality of what happens to your spouse in terms of their own, career transition, their own opportunities to work and also what it means for the family. If you've got children and so on, when we move them, you move them in between country, but also this idea of having to take a step back in terms of where you were at. when you were in Kentucky having had your own grants and then having to take a position as a postdoc, because the step needed to be taken. And some people may find that really, really difficult because they may feel, well, I'm going backward. Well, you know, It's not going backward. It's going with, okay, that's the context. This is infrastructure. These are the rules of visas and immigration, and that's just what needs to be done right now. And that's not easy.

Sara: 14:18

No, I lost a lot of hair. You know, I remember this vividly having this conversation with like, what's up the hair? It was very stressful. It wasn't, it wasn't straightforward. It was like, Oh, I can't believe it. And I couldn't bring the grant, right? Because that American grant it had only like special conditions and one of them was being American, which clearly wasn't. The case, right? So kind of like you don't know, like it was funded once, but is it going to be funded again? How, how much work is going to have to be put on this, right? And, and, you know, there's certainly a factor of luck, right? You have to be a little bit lucky with all these, especially nowadays with the current funding levels, right? It's not just about having a good grant or a good research or productivity, but it's also about having a little bit of luck. And I have to say, you know, that was the case. So

Sandrine: 15:21

One of the things that you said earlier that I think I can very much relate is this thing of fitting in and, you know, when you go and live abroad and you experience, you know, a different cultural context. each country has got these challenges, and you feel, okay, do I fit in is, is the way of working is, the research culture is this, what I want for myself. lots of conversation, when we think about, you know, building a positive research culture that are about, wellbeing and resilience. During these years where there was a level of uncertainty where, you had the grants and then you couldn't take it, you had to go back to being a professor. How did you look after yourself to really keep going and to keep your joy and to want to do it?

Sara: 16:05

And I don't know that I have a good answer for it, you know. When you were young, you were a bit naive too, right? Okay, let's do it, right? Which is great because when you don't know isn't there a saying that goes, not knowing you is impossible, they did it or something like that, and I'm going to butcher it, so we may need to cut that off, but. It's really that, right? Like you're like, okay, we'll just pick up and do it. I, I guess my approach to things is I give myself a little bit of time to process it, to be mad about it, to vent and to maybe even commiserate with colleagues about it. And then I put it aside and to just focus on what I can do, right? I don't waste much of my energy. Our time thinking, Oh, what if, and that's just not me. Okay, what can I do with this? Right? This are the cards I've been dealt and this is what I want to do or what I don't want to do. And how do I make that work?

Sandrine: 17:15

funny you saying that because there is a sort of a model that I use in a lot of the workshops that I run with researchers and research leaders. It comes from a Steve Covey from a very old book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And he talks about this idea of the circle of control. The circle of influence and the circle of concern, and in a way, if you spend your time in the circle of concern, which is the space where there is nothing you can do about anything. So if you're thinking your case, you know, the, the, the rules and regulation of visas, the regulation of a founder, you know, it's like, this is the circle of concern. There is no, point wasting your time in there. And what's the control and expanding the circle of influence? Actually, what is it that I'm going to do to make this happen? Okay, well, I'm going to reapply for a new grant in the new country where I am to take the next step, even if it's a grant that I already had. Well, actually I'm in a different country, so I'm going to get funding from another funder. And that that's really, that that's the thing is not wasting energy in the circle of concern.

Sara: 18:22

Yeah. I guess that's exactly it. But I didn't think about it like that. So right now I am at a very good place where we kind of have this group of people that gets together like once a month over zoom and happens to be all women, I guess, because we share similar challenges and. What not, but it's like our little support group, you know, we meet and we'll go over. I can't believe this happened to you. Oh my gosh. How did you deal with it? Right. And, and you learn a lot, right. And, and it's been really great. So I've been really trying to protect that time, you know, that little hour a month where we can kind of see each other and, and, and, and, and discuss because it's very precious. Right, to be able to do that some people have formal mentors and, and, and things like that. To me that I don't think that ever took place was more really this informal, you know, meeting and then getting together and, Oh, look, well, you know, then someone proposed so we should meet and, and that works. And it's perfect because not only you can get some tips on what you're going through, but you can. It's like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know this could happen. What if this happens to me? Right? It's interesting what you go through your life and, and I don't think you're ever prepared in your career to all the different things. Like you can't be prepared and that's part of the fun, right? Because you're learning, but when it's a big issue like harassment or, you know you know, something that is. It can be life threatening. Then you kind of like, okay, I don't have training for this. So how do you do this? Right. How do you navigate? So having that support is really amazing.

Sandrine: 20:15

The concept of peer groups like this is something that I always promote in a lot of the programs that I run. I tend to call them accountability groups or buddy groups. And for me, it's one of the most powerful type of support that we can have because a support that is ongoing. It's not just on one issue. It's whatever emerges as you live your life in research and as you live personal life, because things are always intertwined. I'm a very, very big advocate I'm keen to have conversation about your role now as a PI, because I think that, there is this, this will, the academic will, the research will, where taking the time to reflect is not something that we are afforded. So having a moment, you know, if your meeting is, you know, once a month, you have an hour where you take the time to reflect on what's going on and you take stock and this time of reflection, I feel is really, really important.

Sara: 21:08

I agree. I agree. It's, it's, it's. I think as you progress, at least me, as I've progressed, the demands on my time have been increasing, but there's only 24 hours, and those 24 hours get shrunk after you have kids and whatnot, right? A family or, you know, other interests, whatever, right? And I find that perhaps it's one of the biggest challenges as I progress through my career is how do I prioritize? The things I want to do versus the things I've been asked to do, right? How do I save time for, for that? so hard to find time to even read papers. nowadays, right? But you have to and when you work in an interdisciplinary field where you have to kind of read more broadly, it's even worse because your to read list is huge, right? So how, how do you protect that time? Like that, that's one of the biggest challenges for me at this point. And I'm not even talking about time to work out here, which

Sandrine: 22:12

That's a really, important, important issue because if you carry on doing, what you've done up until now to be successful, it's probably not going to take you into your next success. Often I have conversation with, researchers and PIs about, okay, what is the thing that you're going to do a little bit less well or in a much shorter time, that's going to create the space for other things, for new things, for the time to read. So for you, what has it been like to, pull back from some activities that you were doing before, or, or give less time to something or feel that you're doing something. And it's not to the quality that you wish you could do it, but that's all you've got time. How does it feel to, create these boundaries and saying no

Sara: 22:56

Yeah. So I'm awful at saying no. I'm, but there are also resources out there and I recently took training that was suggested to me by the group of people, right? Like my support group or, you know, peer group they've done it. I said, it's amazing. And I went through it and I was like, wow, this is incredible. And really about, you know, how to align your calendar with your priorities. Not just, okay, this is the time I have left. How do I squeeze in the things I, I want to do. Right. But it's, it's work, right? It's, it just doesn't happen because I took this, this workshop. You really need to kind of work on it. So I, I'm not sure I'm doing super well. I find like my, where did my time go? Like last year I had more time. What happened this year in particular? I didn't say yes to anything else. What happened? Right. But it's a constant monitoring, right? Like you kind of have to keep an eye on it and then say, okay, this is too much. I also decided to travel less this year, so I'm only going to, you know, the key things and, and that's it. Because, you know, it all takes time, right?

Sandrine: 24:09

So it's, yeah, so it's an ongoing, ongoing evaluation and monitoring and realigning the priorities with actually where you set the time.

Sara: 24:19

Exactly. That to me was kind of like, oh, a light bulb went on, right? Like, it's so obvious, but we don't do it, right? Quite often people have their assistants, you know, manage their calendars. Oh, yeah, yeah, you can put in, you know, the meetings. No, that's something I've never done and I'll never do because I can't just walk to my day and then have something there that I didn't plan for. No. So I did that part myself exactly to try to, You know, be able to have some control over.

Sandrine: 24:55

So when you, think about, the early stage of, building your group. What was the most exciting and challenging about it? Because again, that transition from, working as a, postdoc and then getting your funding, and then suddenly you have money to recruit people, but you need to get them to do the work that you were the one doing before. And, and then you need to get them to work together to support each other. As a PI, you have to take some distance to be able to have the time to do all these other things. So How was this time of becoming a PI for you?

Sara: 25:31

So that was very interesting. But, you know, you don't think about it philosophically, right? It's kind of like, well, at least I didn't. I don't know, maybe some people do. I'm more of a doer. Right? So, okay, what is it that we need to do? We'll break it into small tasks and we'll tackle them. Right? As we can. Just you know, basically like that. I was in the lab a lot because it was just me and one student at the time. So I had to train the student, we had to do experiments together, right, to get enough productivity to get us going. But it was fun, you know I, I didn't think about, you know, I, I guess the optimism is very good because I never thought about, oh, this is not gonna work or what if this doesn't work? Oh, okay, let's just do it. do what I know what to do, right? And, and I find it fun. So went on, did the things, and in the beginning, I think you have the privilege to not have as many demands on your time, right? Some people have protected time from teaching, you have, you know, you're not in as many committees. So in a way, you know, I, I find it's This mid career transition, it was more complicated, you know, like now we went from 7 to 12, how do you still give them one on one time and attention and manage all the different projects and really know what's going on, right? Cause I didn't want to be like, okay, this is the, this is the plot. Wow. Wait a minute. Let's go back. How, you know, like all the details take me through, how did you, what are the controls, how it happened? What are the numbers? And also being involved in what I like, right. Everyone gets into research because they love being in, in the lab and all of a sudden they're more managers and less in the lab. Right. So this part to me has been more interesting. So I've tried to hire some senior people to help with the training since I don't have the time to train as much anymore. And then really COVID retired me from the lab we had a limited number of people that could be in the lab at a given time, right? Because of the restrictions. So it was actually counterproductive, me being in the lab. As opposed to someone else, right? So, you know, I was a little bit forced to retire. But I go in there, I look at the things, I really want to be as much hands on as I can. Because one, I think, you know, I, I want to know the details. I want to know it all. I've, you know, there are instances where you can pick something up that wasn't supposed to be done. That was done, but wasn't communicated, right? And that's going to be published. So if you're not there, and if you don't know the details, you can't have that control unless you have someone else doing it for you. And then you have to, you know, still, right, train that person and whatnot. And also because we all like it, we start looking at the cells or whatever it is that you do in the lab, right? And that's what drives you. So you want to still maintain that.

Sandrine: 28:48

So I often talk with new PIs about, rituals that they have in terms of the way they run their labs, things they do, how they organize to create a certain type of culture. So how have you gone about creating the culture that you wanted to create for your own group?

Sara: 29:05

So this is a, again, another ongoing. Right? Every time someone else, someone new joins, it shifts the culture. And that's why I also spend a lot of time during the interview process and have my people meet with, you know, potential candidates. in my absence, right, to make sure it's not going to be disruptive because it only takes one person that doesn't fit in. It's not even if it's good or bad, right? It's just I, I know what I can work with and I know what I can't. And I know to me, it's going to be really frustrating to have a certain, you know, I was going to say phenotype, but that's very science y, certain characteristics. So knowing that I start, you know I make that a priority because I want to make sure people get along. I've seen labs and I've been in labs where people just, there's different fields and people don't necessarily get along. It's just not fun going in, right? You wake up in the morning, you, you dread it and, and I haven't, I I haven't had that. Right? So you wanna make sure that doesn't happen to, in your lab, right? That's the one-on-one. You want people to wanna come in and wanna be here. So I try to keep it light and I try to keep open communication. I know it's hard. But, you know I, I tried to set up expectations from the get go, listen, this is my role, this is your role, this is what you're expected to do, you know, that kind of thing. Because oftentimes I find that, you know, a lot of issues come from just people not knowing. Right. So they can guess. They have to be, you know told that, you know, this is how things work, and this is what you expect to do. Because then, if they're not meeting that, you can just let them know, remember, we talked about this, and then if it happens repeatedly, you know, right? But they can't just guess. I also try not to micromanage. So I want to see the data, I want to see everything, but I don't want to be telling them what to do next. Right? Like of course we can, I can help with those conversations and I have my own interests, but often people have other interests. So, you know, I find that has also brought cool new stuff lab because they were interested in something that I wasn't, but you know, it fit the, the overall theme and it ended up being interesting. So I tried to do that. I, I tried to apologize if I mess up, you know, I mess up too. Right. And I think that's an important part. Also big on, you know, EDI, trying to make sure we apply those principles in the lab. And again, I say try here everywhere because it's a process, right? You're learning And, and I'm going to mess up and they're going to mess up and that's fine as long as we deal with it and we troubleshoot and we move forward. From there, right?

Sandrine: 32:11

One of the thing that comes often in the conversation that I have with people is the, challenge of having conversation with some of your team members when people really don't perform. So when you have, you know, PhD student who may have lost motivation or for whatever reason, and you don't often know the reason, but you may have a sense of frustration because they're not delivering based on the expectation that you have. And they may be very, very nice people, you know, at a personal level, you may have a really good interaction. And it's this thing about, you know, assertive conversation and how we hold a space for this, this conversation that feels that we are trying to run away from them, but needs to happen. So how have you approached yourself having these open conversation when it feels like you rather avoid them, but you know that it's better to have them.

Sara: 33:03

A great question. I don't know that I have an approach. I've done it right and I've done it wrong, right? I don't know which ones I've done more often, to be honest, right? But I always find that starting with curiosity, right? Is everything okay? Right? Do you need anything? Is anything missing? Right? How can I help here? I notice X. Right. This is maybe not usual or right. Like, and sometimes I get, I have a serious problem in my family. I just, I mean, just take some time off, go deal with it. Come back. Right. Or Or then it's just, no, no, it's all fine, blah, blah, blah. So then you kind of have to be like, okay, you know, can't do this. You know, if you, if you, that's, that's the other thing too, I, I, I tend to say I have my PhD. I don't need another one. You're here for yours. I can't do it for you. I can help you. I can support you. I can do my best and if it's not working, it's fine too. You know, you can find a different lab or whatever, right? Because it's not just how they fit in my lab. It's how they like it, right? And you know, sometimes. They may find out that they may not be able to work, you know, don't like my system or whatever it is, right. It's a fit on both sides. So and, and usually I approach it like that, you know, like, so, so how can we, how can we make this work? Right. So you have this limited amount of time. I think you could benefit from maybe this or that, right. So I tried to figure out what the issue is. with questions and, and, and trying to probe and then just, you know, being clear, right? And that's the balance. I think it's very hard. I think some people are very much You know, oh, we're all friends and it's all nice when it's not, right? There's, there's definitely hierarchy and in the end it's a professional relationship as much as we like spending time with each other and going for, you know, I don't know, donuts or sweets, which we do, we tend to do because I have a sweet tooth. Some of my people do too. So, you know the end, they're here to either to get their PhD or the postdoc or whatever it is, right? So it's a, It's a relationship that you have to invest on, but it's a professional relationship and, and separating that it's important, right?

Sandrine: 35:43

way you started talking about it in terms of starting from a point of curiosity, I think is, is really important because if we feel frustrated about a working relationship, many people will start from a position of blame, this person isn't working enough or isn't producing what needs to be done. And actually when you enter a conversation like that, it doesn't really lead you to a good place. So actually curiosity, is key in, in figuring things out and lifting the assumptions that we make about why people are not performing. So there is an American coach called Nancy Klein, and she has a methodology called the thinking environment. And a lot of the things she talks about is about, how do we create time for others to do their best thinking? And she's one of these proponent of really creating the space for people to be listened and I don't know whether that's something that you've experimented with this idea of how do I create a, listening space where I really listen to my team members talk about their stuff or how you're creating that space for others to do their best thinking.

Sara: 36:53

I usually ask questions and if they don't know the answer, I'll just tell them, oh, okay, so you go look it up and you tell me when, if, once you find it, right, and I have people come in multiple times. Well, okay, so I thought about, It's like, not quite there yet, go look some more. So what if, right? Like, what if you were to set up this experiment to really demonstrate this? What is the experiment you have to do? Why? Why does this happen? And they'll go away and then they'll come back and it's like, nope, not quite there yet, right? And sometimes, I can't. I jumped the gun. What if, right? I can think I've done that a lot of times or quite often because we have, you know, in our lab meetings would take turns presenting data and I asked them to give like a little bit of an overview and then the progress, right? And sometimes they're preparing for a committee meeting or something, right, or a presentation and I ask a question and you know, if they don't know the answer, I'll often say, okay, look it up because I'm not going to tell you what it is, right? And sometimes in the end they figure it out, which is great. Sometimes you, okay, so, you know, this is really what's there. what's going on here, you know, your committee, then, you know, you have to read this, this, and that, But it is a process, and it's difficult, particularly when you press for time. So it really depends. It's context dependent, right? I can do it, and I usually do it, like, I'm not answering it for you it's part of I guess they're the development, right. To kind of be able to do that. I guess this is the most critical part. It's not the results, right. It's being able to think about, put different concepts together and, and think about how they build up on one another. And, and It's, it's really important and I think that, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. A process too

Sandrine: 38:48

As I said before, one of the things I get a lot of early career researchers to work on is how do you engage in a conversation? How do you become more assertive? How do you build your research voice? And I'm interested about this in the context of your progression within your department or institution, because there are many, committees that you will have been part of, and having a voice in these spaces can be difficult, especially when you're a woman, especially when you're a foreigner, so what have been situation where having a voice, having an assertive voice has been really challenging and how are you building that assertive voice now as you progress, in your seniority.

Sara: 39:30

So I can think of a few things and I dunno that I can answer all your questions, but in terms of participating in committees and being involved and being heard I'll always give it a try. Right? I'll try to make myself hard or, contribute to the conversation. And if I feel like I'm being shut down, right, which happens, right? I just. don't contribute anymore, right? Because why am I gonna be wasting my energy when it's not really, gonna be considered? So I try to either drop the committee do something else while I'm in the committee. Now, if it's something that is really important to me, So the issue of women representation and, and equity and stuff in science is really important to me. And I, I, I participate in some of these discussions. So then I'll try to be more, more vocal. And I find that having a partner Within the committee is critical, right? Because if one person says something, and it's met with silence or no support, it's really hard to move through. But if you have someone else that's aligned in that, that steps up, then it becomes a force, right? So then you can change minds. Then you can contribute. But I have to say I've been fortunate to, you know, be in groups, and that probably was by design, right? Involved in groups where I feel super comfortable and happy to contribute and heard and haven't had issues. But I'm sure it's because of, I selected my environment, right? And, I've seen this happen, you know, where people are shut down all the time and all that. And, it can be hard. Right? But then again, you have this limited amount of time. You have a limited amount of contributions you can make. Are you going to spend your energy into something that is clearly not going to change, right?

Sandrine: 41:42

There is always this expression, pick your battles. And in a way, that's what you're doing here. It's like picking when it actually truly matters, then I'm going to put the energy, even if it feels very uncomfortable, but I will put the energy. And I love this idea of having what I would call a champion, I guess, somebody who is aligned to, okay, that's the change that's necessary. and who is present and backing you up in a context of a situation where people may not want to respond or may be very negative about something that you propose.

Sara: 42:14

But also what happens is sometimes you have these conversations, you know, beforehand and realign. We're like, okay, great. So we go in and we talk about it and you get into the meeting and you open your mouth and that's it. No one else says anything. and that's when you realize that's not as important to

Sandrine: 42:32

Hmm.

Sara: 42:34

And they don't want to waste their energy or, the issue is not as important, right? And often it's when there's not something for themselves in the end, But, you know a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people be really brave and use their resources and tenure and whatever it is in terms of minimal kind of protections that they do to stand up to things that are really important or against things that are not acceptable and it's really hard to do. Right. So those are like idols that you try to emulate somewhere there. You know behavior, but you have to be tactful, right? How do you do it in a way that it's not critical? It's involving

Sandrine: 43:19

what you're saying is that it's not being confrontational, but actually finding a way, if you're thinking about creating a change of actually getting people involved instead of getting them to, I don't know, get on their high horses, or you don't go into it in a battle, but you get people engaged. It will be your, your approach.

Sara: 43:45

Yeah, you know, if you start a conversation by saying you're wrong, then it's really hard to make that conversation work, right? But if you, if you say, okay, what is it that we want to accomplish? How about this? You know, like, try to pursue it? So there's another thing too, it's a lot of time serving on different committees and different things like this. It's a lot of time, right? So they're usually involved because they care at some level, right? So when you're not concentrational, I guess it makes those conversations easier and it's easier to navigate as opposed to people, you know, shouting at each other and then being in different fields, me against you, that kind of thing. Okay.

Sandrine: 44:27

So I've used a lot of your time and I want to make sure we, we close our conversation. Is there, is there something that you would want to share you know, when you're thinking about, early career researchers, postdoc, PhD, research fellows who are on that journey, what, what is a message that you would want to have for them?

Sara: 44:47

Explore, you know, don't be fixated on, this is what I want to do. Take the time to explore, explore different things you can do, different career paths, different methodologies, different mentors, different mentorship styles, because in the end, it's all, that's the time to do it, right? And it's, it's enriching and you learn so much. so much. That it's all gonna help you later on, no matter if you end up being a PI or like industry or whatever, right?

Sandrine: 45:24

And, and when you're reflecting on, the journey that you've had yourself, if you had to do it all over again, is there something that you would do differently to maybe make things less challenging, what would you tell your young self?

Sara: 45:40

Ooh, if I were to start over, I think that, you know, explore, don't, don't be afraid to go out there and then and, and then explore, which I've done to some extent, right? Like I've been all over the world doing different things and which is nice, but. keep an open mind. I think it's really important to do that and and be less concerned with the outcome, you know, like kind of enjoy the ride and let's see how it goes. Which is easier said than done.

Sandrine: 46:11

I think it's a good mindset to have. That's certain. Thank you so much, Sarah, for this conversation. I'm sure that our audience listening to you will, have got lots of nice ideas. And one of the thing I'm really picking up in, in term of assertive conversation is really this idea of having champion and having somebody backing you up and I think that your own experience of being part of a support group is a reminder that, we all have the power to create these things. It's not in the hands of the university. We can just reach out to a few colleagues and say, okay, do you just want to meet for a coffee? It sounds very, very simple. But so many people do not do that and they're really missing out. So that's certainly something I encourage many of the people I work with. So thank you. Really appreciate your input.

Sara: 46:57

for coffee Thank you.