62- Dr Iryna Kuksa- Designing green personalisation

Dr Iryna Kuksa is a Senior Research Fellow in the School of Art and Design at Nottingham Trent University. She describes herself as a cross-disciplinary researcher, having studied and worked, in departments as diverse as History of Arts, British Politics and Theatre, Performance & Cultural Studies. The common thread in her research interests is Digital Technologies.

Growing up in Belarus, Iryna was exposed in her family environment to lots of artists, which fostered her appreciation and interest in creativity. This environment showed her the value of inclusivity when it comes to working across different disciplines. Changes in her country’s political system created new opportunities to access scholarships via the British Council. This allowed her to get her first experience of research in the UK (Oxford and LSE) and later on to embark on a PhD at The University of Warwick.

Her earlier undergraduate experiences as an industrial designer have instilled in her the curiosity of asking questions from multiple perspectives. She has shifted her research questions on personalisation towards paying more attention to reducing consumption. As a designer interested in personalisation and digital technologies, how do you reconcile your interest in new objects and products with the need to reduce consumption towards a more sustainable world. She has developed the concept of “green personalisation”. 

Iryna shares:

• How important it is to recognise opportunities when they present themselves.
• How research niche and interest evolve but we don’t always need to reinvent the wheel. 
• How having “thoughts partners” can help you shift your research ideas and perspectives. Her interactions with external stakeholders have been important in getting her to embrace the sustainability agenda and to promote among designers a rise in awareness of their role in sustainability issues.
• How the nature of short-term contracts continues to be a challenge and may lead researchers to accept positions with lower salaries; in her case, this allowed her to move to an open-ended contract as a research fellow.
• How volunteering on things that matter to you is a process to build your leadership. Iryna became actively involved in building a community of ECR to promote a positive and supportive research culture in her institution.
• How she has learned to become more outspoken in meetings but also how aware she is of the importance of line managers in supporting progress as an early career academic.
• How progression is never straightforward. Having taken maternity leaves, she is fully aware that the pace of progression and research output may have slowed down for some time. She acknowledges that as a mum of 2 kids with a supportive partner who is also an academic, the balance of work and life is an ongoing juggling exercise.
•  How supporting PhD students provides her with a great sense of giving back to the research community.

Transcript

Sandrine: 0:00

All right. Let's get started. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Dear listeners, you're on the podcast research lives and cultures. I'm your host Sandrine Soub. And today I have with me a researcher from Nottingham Trent University. Irina Kuksa. I hope I'm pronouncing your, your name properly.

Iryna: 0:32

Yes. Perfect. Yeah.

Sandrine: 0:34

Okay. Thank you. So you work as a research fellow and I've never actually interviewed somebody from your discipline. So you're in the department of design or something like that. Art and design, and you are actually also the director of the design research center. So I tend really to interview lots of people from the sciences. So this is a first, so I'm really excited about our conversation. So let's get started in, in hearing from you, a little bit about your career so far. What's been the journey, up until now?

Iryna: 1:09

Well it's been a long journey, I must say. So I am a cross-disciplinary scholar and I grew up in Minsk, in Belarus where I obtained my ba and uh, ma was distinction in industrial design at the Belarusian State University of Arts. And, after that, after finishing my education, I moved to the UK for my postgraduate studies, for which I was very fortunate enough to win a string of competitive scholarships. So, just to give you a brief overview, I I studied at the History of Art Department and Balliol College at the University of Oxford. And then I moved to, to study British politics in the London School of Economics. And then I started my PhD in the Theatre, Performance, and Cultural Policy Studies at the University of Warwick. so you can see, you know, my career. career path wasn't very traditional. So I was jumping a little bit from discipline to discipline. I think what held me all this together is my interest in digital technology. So I managed to integrate digital technologies and pretty much everything I studied. So yeah, as you said, I'm currently very fortunate again to hold a permanent research only position at the School of Art and Design in Nottingham Trent University, where I'm also leading the Design Research Centre.

Sandrine: 2:37

So what made you want to go abroad to, to study? I've done the same as you, you know, I'm French originally and I left my country for my PhD and there is something quite challenging about moving to another country because you don't necessarily know the system in terms of accessing funding and, the way the research system works somewhere else. So, what was the impetus for you to, to have the courage and been daring to jump into this unknown?

Iryna: 3:06

I was, you know, I was always very keen to, like, broaden my horizon in a way, you know, just to, I was always keen to learn more. I think I'm naturally curious as a designer. I'm curious about the world. I'm curious about how it works, about the problems, real life problems, and how to solve them. you So I again, you know, luck played a big role in my decision making processes about my career because I managed to to find this niche between, you know, two system, one system collapsed with the Soviet Union, and then another system was, political system was built, which is not particularly open. But I managed to find this gap when lots of charities and organizations like British Council et cetera, they were offering very competitively, don't get me wrong scholarships. To, you know, students and ballerinas. And, you know, I was just lucky for example, for my studies at Oxford, I won Chevening Scholarship, which only selected two people from, from the whole of the country and whole of the disciplines. So, you know, it was, it was very lucky. And I actually, you know, I won two scholarships, one to go to Germany, because German was my second foreign language. And want to go to Oxford. So I mean, I had a choice and they decided, well, you don't really say no to Oxford. So I thought, Hmm, I'll go there. And the rest, you know, the rest is history really.

Sandrine: 4:25

It's funny because you use the term lucky uh, multiple times and I always say. Not exactly, because, you know, this idea of making your own luck, I think is really important and really taking action and taking the opportunities when they present themselves, I think is really what's at the core of making your own luck. What did you feel you had already within yourself that gave you the confidence to just go for these things? Because some people, they don't have the internal, confidence of going for opportunities or the narratives that they have in their heads, you know, stops them from, from jumping in spaces where they don't know whether they'd be successful and they don't know whether they'll be able to do the work. What do you feel you had and where did it come from?

Iryna: 5:13

Well, I suppose, you know, I was always a creative, like growing up, I was always a creative person. You know, I was interested. I read a lot. I was interested in different subjects. So I was never, you know, focused on one niche. I always consider, you know, disciplinary boundaries are quite unfortunate. I think it worked for me. You know, I think about big questions and big problems and then I'm trying to solve it. And I was exactly like that as a child, you know, I tried to think out of the box, My education, you know, even back in Belarus, although it's not, you know, one of the most open societies, I was in the creative environment, you know, I was interacting with people who were painters, artists and actors, designers of different sorts. So I think this environment of creativity. inclusivity, you know, of different subject areas because we could speak to each other across disciplines and understand each other because we were creatives and practitioners at the same time. I guess that gave me confidence. And, you know, I agree with you, like confidence doesn't come easy to lots of people and I realized that very clearly when I did an Aurora program, which is female only leadership training program. So I did it in 2022 in a way similar to the daring to to dare. But I, I realized for the first time that, you know, this imposed a syndrome when people are really feeling out of place in their, like, jobs on an everyday basis is very common amongst female academics. And I was really shocked, you know, that nobody really talks about that. You know, it's kind of hidden in the plain sight. And I realized that I don't have it and it is probably because I was exposed to creatives my whole life. And then just to give you an example, I did my PhD in the theater and performance studies department. Although, you know, I was interested in design and digital technologies and set designs. I saw all the people acting and training and, you know, it really helps to open up your, you know, your inner self and just be out there and be more outspoken. After this program and when talking to female colleagues, I just said, I never realized again how lucky I was, you know, just to grow as a researcher, as a designer in this kind of environment.

Sandrine: 7:37

It's really fascinating because creatives also, you know, don't necessarily trust themselves, but there is a thing of always putting the work out there, in term of the performance or the painting. and in a way being exposed to that shows you that it's a process and that you don't move forward. If you don't put a play out there, you know, nobody will, we'll hear it. You know, if you don't as an actor, if you don't play the scene, you don't know whether the scene is going to be good. The more and more exposure you have, the more in a way the inner trust is built through this ongoing exposure.

Iryna: 8:11

Yes, I agree. You know, I was like doing my PhD. I was just thinking back about my time as a PhD student at Warwick because unfortunately my supervisor, my PhD supervisor passed away last December. So last year, and I just realized, you know, when you just get together with the colleagues and people I used to work or study with. And when you remember this wonderful person, I just realized how advanced he was for his time because he was the head of school when I studied my PhD. And he created this incredibly inclusive environment, you know, for early career researchers, for PhD students, giving us opportunity, which is very rare. In other universities at the time and now as well, just to go and be exposed to the big research, international research world out there. So he would, you know, give us an opportunity to go to the conferences. We would have exciting speakers coming and networking with us and talking to us PhD students. We always had opportunities to ask questions, you know, to mingle formally and formally. So, you know, this environment was created. for us to grow as researchers. And it was completely invaluable. So, you know, having great mentors, it's paramount to be successful as a researcher.

Sandrine: 9:30

I'll be interesting to hear in more details about the research that you are doing now in terms of understanding the process of building your research niche, because as you say, your work is very interdisciplinary so can you take us through the process Of understanding what you do

Iryna: 9:45

How I navigated my research was definitely curiosity because I am curious about big, big issues, big problems, hard work. Undoubtedly, you know, you have to work hard, but also it's recognizing an opportunity when it presents itself. So I'll just give you an example of how I developed as a researcher. So I as part of my PhD I, I produced a 3d model a reconstruction of a set design By theater designer, by industrial designer of the early 20th century, Norman Bel Geddes. And that happened really, you know, by luck and by accident. So my, one of my supervisors just showed me like a little picture. I remember it was completely minuscule from one of the theater encyclopedia or something of the divine comedy of Norman Bel Geddes design, like a sketch for his divine comedy. And I was like, Ah, that's interesting. It looks incredibly amazing. You know, I've never came across that. So I thought, okay, I'm going to look into that in more detail. So what I did, it's been like, you know, some time ago. So the, the internet still existed, but not, not as good as it is now, but I decided just to start looking. So who is this guy? This I've never heard about him. And then It's an amazing design. Why haven't I seen it? So I tried to find information online. I couldn't find anything. I just identified the place where the archive was held, and it was in America, in the University of Texas at Austin, at the Harry Ransom Center. So I thought, okay, I'm going to just email them and ask about Norman Bel Geddes because, you know, I'm really interested. I think he's incredibly talented, was incredibly talented. I am interested in his design. So I did. And, you know, as one would expect, you just, you know, Sit and wait for weeks to receive the reply back, or it will never come, and you have to follow on. But I received like reply in a couple of hours, and the curator of the archive was in touch with me, and she said, oh my god, I almost fell off my chair when I received your email. I was trying to get researchers interested in this guy, like, for, for such a long time, and here you are. So, you know, the rest is history, really. You know, I started communicating to this person. I arranged a trip. I went to the archives. I discovered all sorts of materials nobody had seen, you know. Nobody had seen for ages. And, you know, it really struck me surprising that Norma Bel Geddes was so famous during his life and then completely forgotten after he passed away in the mid 20th century. So I thought it's such a injustice to this talented person. And I found amazing materials and I thought exactly, oh gosh, it's perfect for my PhD. It will be an excellent case study. So I collected all the materials I recreated in 3d, made it accessible to students to learn about this remarkable set design because it has never been staged. It only existed that, you know, blueprints sketches and 3d models, which was lost. So nobody, nobody had seen it for decades. So I've done that. And, you know, My model became a part of the archive, so it's still located in Harry Ransom Center. They awarded me a fellowship for my hard work, and I even, you know, implemented this as a teaching material for my students at different universities. So that's, you know, how it all started. My interest in digital technology finally materialized in something more tangible. And then. I, you know, I kind, I, as I said, you know, I always was interested in digital spaces, how we use digital spaces for communication. And then the social media boom happened. And then I thought, okay, that's, that's something else. I want to look at digital spaces for communication and creativity. And in 2014, I published my first academic book, which I called making sense of space, because it's exactly what I wanted to do to make sense of space of digital space and real spaces, how they intermix. And then after that, it's because of the, you know, how digital technologies exploded. How they invaded our lives and, you know, our lives became not even like 50 percent digital. We are now pretty much, I don't know, 80 percent digital and 20 percent living in the real life. So my interest after publishing this book evolved into how, how we're influenced when we are online. Who or what is influencing our behavior? And that's how my research interest evolved into looking at personalization and targeting mechanisms. So what makes us behave the way we do when we are online? That was a complete revelation because nobody started it from the design perspective. And, you know, it was surprising to me. So I thought, okay, so that's my, That's my niche. That's my chance. And I launched a new research field, which I call design for personalization.

Sandrine: 14:51

It's fascinating in term of the timing as well, because obviously with COVID, the shift to online working and, the boom in, digital courses and so on. there's been really a change. So, when I say, you know, I'm, I'm not keen on the terminology of luck, somehow the interest that you have find themselves in the, in the right time zone there is really a shift and these questions are really becoming the questions that we need to start asking.

Iryna: 15:18

No, that's exactly what, you know, it's just to stay like in tune with the time. You need to be curious. You need to read. You need to see what's out there. You know, you, Just, you know, I read across disciplines. I just don't read design literature. I'm interested in everything what's happening, all sorts of new discoveries, you know, scientific medical, biological, you name it. NASA, you know, went to the moon again, something like that. You know, it's because, you know, everything is technology. We humans are really good at creating technologies. And because that's my interest, I, I try to be completely open to all sorts of disciplines and to look and see how technologies are used. And my particular interest is to adopt technologies for the benefits of the society rather than, you know, individual businesses or individual persons.

Sandrine: 16:10

The ethos of interdisciplinary working is, is very appealing. There is something very exciting about it, but at the same time, it could feel very overwhelming because where do you stop? You know, you get, so many ideas from lots of different directions, but you need to reconcile and create a framework of approaching a research question that's going to be manageable. How do you. balance that in terms of getting ideas from lots of different disciplines and still creating a sense that that's the way I'm going to approach answering the questions that, that I'm developing.

Iryna: 16:45

It's a good question. Because, you know, I'm a designer by training and design is multidisciplinary in the definition, you know, so being a designer means that you have to approach a problem from a different point of views, whether it's technology, shape, function, color, you know, attractiveness to the consumer. it is tricky to narrow things down and particularly, no, I published my last book at the end of 2022 and it was it was called understanding personalization. And I realized that it's very difficult to understand personalization because it is completely ubiquitous and we kind of, we live with it. You know, by switching on our phones every morning and we see the news feeds on our phones, which are selected by AI. We haven't selected that. It was selected because of our digital footprints, what we looked at in the past. I, as a, as a world citizen, I'm very concerned about the climate change. You know, what's happening with the biodiversity loss, what's happening with our environment. And As a designer, I feel responsible for boosting consumption because, you know, designers design good products. That's our job, our job description. We design products which sell. And if you design a good product, consumers want to buy it more and more and more. And when you boost consumption, you create, you know, pollution, waste generation, all sorts of problems for the environment. So for me, how I narrowed it down is I just decided my main research question now is how can we reduce consumption and what can I do as a designer to reduce consumption? So that's how I narrowed it down. It's still very, very wide in terms of disciplines and questions which can, you know, come, you know, they keep coming every day. But at least, you know, that's the focus. I'm focusing on reducing consumption on reframing the narrative about consumption, not to consume more, but consume better and consume greener. Because of course we all have to survive. Businesses have to survive. Consumers, you know, they need new goods. They need new services. It's just a matter of, Changing the narrative, not more, but greener.

Sandrine: 18:59

So in a way it's using your value system to refocus the direction of your research. It's value base lens to decide what you're going to focus on.

Iryna: 19:10

Yeah, absolutely. And that came from this enormous interest in, in the subject from multidisciplinary point of view. So after I finished my last book two years ago I coined the concept of green personalization. So basically I thought, So there is something here, you know, we have all these technologies in place which are working perfectly fine because obviously we consume, over consume on unprecedented scale across the world and so the, the technologies are there, we just need to repurpose them and change the narrative. So this, you know, how I feel about it. Found my current research niche, which I call green personalization, and I just started talking to people at the conferences, talking to students, trying to deliver this message that, you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, you know, it's all there. We just need to change the narrative. And, you know, like during the COVID, we all realized that we can actually prioritize societal over individual priorities, you know, we can come together. As a society, there is a problem we need to solve. So I think there is an appetite for change because particularly younger people, they realize that there is no planet B. That's the only planet we have. We need to do something together about that. And every single individual is a consumer. We are all consumers. Business owners are consumers. Designers are consumers. Everybody is. And if every single one of us will make a small change. A small difference in the way we buy products and services, we can make a huge difference all together.

Sandrine: 20:46

It's funny because recently I took part in a gathering of coaches and there is a really very famous coach, you know, very influential called Peter Hawking and he's really challenging coaches to see how, climate change is influencing the way we work as coaches in term of the, type of conversation we has with our coaches, the way we design, leadership program and so on. And in a way, that's what you're doing in term of challenging designers. To think about, okay, how do we embed the current reality in the way that design is done.

Iryna: 21:24

Absolutely. And you know, it's when I talk to the students and they're all designers from different disciplines, fashion designers, you know, graphic designers, I said, that's you, you know, that's your planet. That's your future. You're designers. You have the skills to change the narrative. That's how you present your products. And of course, you know, lots of consumers, they They don't know what they buy, you know, that's, that's the problem because, you know, when you go and buy a new dress, you don't really know what's in it, you know, they're going to give you some information, but you haven't got a clue where it was made, whether, you know, it was, you know, You know, the workers were paid fairly, what sort of in my, you know, the carbon footprint is produced you know, to be delivered to your country, to your doorstep. So I think we need information, we need education, but we also, you know, that's my kind of job to mobilize designers that they're aware. That they're not just solving problems. They're making problems, you know, they are driving climate change even unintentionally, but it's just the matter of awareness. And if you're aware of what you're doing and you look at your work from a different perspective, then you can change, you can change the narrative, you know, narrative. I think everybody understands because, you know, we are, we're humans. We are storytellers. You know, we relate to stories. If you have a, a story to tell about sustainability, then lots of people will relate to that. If you say, okay, so this brand, they're greenwashing, you know, they're not really delivering what they're saying. So, you know, consumers are a huge power. It's up to us. If we decide not to buy from this brand, they're done, you know, they're done. Businesses cannot function without consumers. So I think consumers, they really need to embrace the power they have. and use it for, for the best of the planet.

Sandrine: 23:11

What's the big picture that, that you have in your head in the way that you want to contribute right now through the research that you do, what do you feel that you really want to influence, beyond, you know, the academic publication, what's the big end goal that, that you have in mind.

Iryna: 23:29

Well, I always thought that outreach and outreach activities are incredibly important, you know, for academics because you can't really stay in academia without communicating to the general public, you know, what you discovered. So I have like probably a decade of outreach activities and it was again, not something what I'm doing now, but I used to work with a theatre company and We were developing strategies to improve for example, primary school children's literacy and attainment, you know, through art and theater or like, you know, teaching primary school kids about complex concepts like gravity through theater. So, you know, there are, there are ways we can deliver the message, which people will get and they will understand. So currently, my current plan, because you know, it's a very fresh research, this green personalization. I, I am initiating lots of discussions with various stakeholders, consumers, obviously, because it's very, very important, But it's easy because everybody is a consumer. You go to the conference, you have a, you know, a room full of academics. They're all consumers. So, you know, they can relate to that. But also businesses, you know, I, I started collaborating quite closely with the former CEO of of big design firms. So he, He's like my thoughts partner, so we can talk together. So I can have some sort of idea about, okay, how we reduce consumption. And he will tell me, Oh, well, and businesses operate this, this, and this. So, you know, you can't really do that. You need to think about it from a different point of view. So it really helps, you know, it's again, getting out of your. Disciplinary boundaries in a way, just going beyond, reaching out to people, networking. You know, I find LinkedIn, I mean, I don't like social media because I research social media, so I have a lot of reservation of using it. But I, I'm quite fond of LinkedIn because, you know, it is a professional community. And I can just see after introducing the, the green personalization concept. I get. all sorts of people from all over the world contacting me and just trying to learn more. So I think the, the stepping stone would be just to raise the awareness because people understand that they understand they can make a difference in their, you know, in their consumption choices. It's just, they don't think about it terribly hard. You know, if you want to buy something, you just go and buy it. Yeah. But it's, It's just, you know, like stop, take a breath, think about it. You can still buy it, but just think about it. And it's particularly important when you shop online, because that's the moment when we can change narrative and say, okay, maybe you should go to this brand because they're much greener. They're much more environmentally aware. So, you know, there is a, there is an opportunity. So for me at the moment, I'm raising awareness and I'm trying to understand how. I can't develop add on or something to change this moment when people think whether they should buy or not and just chip in and make them think even harder.

Sandrine: 26:37

So Irina, I'll be interesting to now maybe understand the way that you've navigated your career, some of the challenges that you face. So after, you did your PhD in Warwick. what came next in term of establishing yourself as a research fellow in term of the position that you have now, once you have your PhD, it's all very nice, but getting, a permanent position as a fellow is quite exceptional.

Iryna: 27:03

Well, I know, I'm pretty sure you heard a lot about, you know, insecurities of research jobs when people finish their PhD. It's, it's like, It's a very problematic time when you have to start securing your first jobs. And it's very difficult. I think this job insecurity for, for researchers is, it's really bad, you know, it's from, for the mental health point of view, because, you know, it's incredibly stressful time trying to find a job. So I did pretty much, you know, like what everybody else is doing, you know, looking at. all sorts of things, different universities very short term positions. So I had like several postdocs, which some of them were like, I don't know, three months, you know, something, which is crazy. You know, you spend so much time applying for something and then you're pretty much out of the job again. So you start, you kind of need to start thinking what's next. So I was like jumping from, you know, one job to another job. And then I had, I think my longest postdoc was two years and, you know, I kind of progressed, I became a senior researcher. So I thought, okay, you know, I'm making a career progression. And then I I was always keeping an eye on the job market because, you know, if you don't have a permanent post, that's what you do because you know that your, your contract will come to an that's it, you know, you're jobless again. So I was always keeping my eye on the job market and this this position and my current university just came on the market and I thought, huh, well, I mean, you don't see permanent positions research only permanent position that positions that often. And I had to make a decision because I was on a much better salary. I was a senior researcher, so for me it was a step down, or maybe two steps down, you know, in terms of salary and the job title. So I applied, so I was shortlisted, and then I was selected, so that was the decision I had to make. I had to, I had to take the pay cut, like, you know, quite a significant pay cut, but I got the security. of the permanent position. And then obviously, because I had this base, you know, the permanent base, I could progress in my career, but I totally understand that that doesn't happen to, to many people. It was quite exceptional to have this. And I know because I mentor lots of young researchers, early career researchers in my university. And that always comes up, you know, because this job insecurity, I think universities should. think very, very hard how to prevent this because, you know, it's not only creating a lot of stress for researchers and insecurity, but also you have this researcher for a year or so, and then they move somewhere else. So, you know, you invest as a university on this person, you provide training, you provide resources, and then they just moved somewhere else because you didn't provide this platform for securing their position more permanently. So there are lots of work to be done. And I'm currently initiating discussions with my university to introduce, for example, like research professorships and research associate professorships. So people could Progress, you know, staying in their niche. Yeah. So I don't know whether it's going to be successful or not But you know in my view if you don't talk about something nobody does anything at least you're raising awareness So there is a chance that something can be done, but I totally understand. I mean it's It wasn't an easy time to jump from one job to another. I remember that. I think everybody in the academia remembers this time when it's so insecure, which it makes you like, you know, wake up at night and think, Oh my God, you know, I can't be jobless in a couple of months. I'm trying, I'm really trying to, to change the status quo.

Sandrine: 30:40

I worked as a researcher developer for many, many years in an institution. And what you do as a researcher developers is that you create opportunities for postdocs and PhD student to develop professionally. And, you always tend to have the same researchers who attend the workshop or who, Put themselves forward and take opportunities. So obviously when you are on a short term contract, you know, if you get a postdoc for three months, just the idea of professional development is, it's not even conceivable. How did you go about building yourself professionally beyond just, you know, a specific project maybe that's meant that your CV and your experiences were really diverse because again, if you have three months to do a piece of work, when you're not going to think about your professional development, you're just going to be so focused. So how did you approach that?

Iryna: 31:31

It was, it was a tricky time because you know, when you are on the short term contract, you are normally attached to a project. Yeah. So you have a clear set of objectives you have to achieve, which, you know, I always try to push for more, you know, like if there wasn't, for example, an opportunity to have a seminar, I will say let's organize something. So I would always volunteer to do more than my Contract asked me to just because I identified a niche. Okay. We don't have a like research exchange. Why don't we? I mean, it will be much more productive. So as a result, you know, at the end of the contract, the project turned out to be much better than, you know, it was supposed to be. So in a way, we were You know, I was building relationships with people in different universities, like good relationships. So in terms of, you know, like widening up my network, because, you know, even if you're on a short term contract, you still get to know people, you meet new people, you network, you talk about your research, you discuss ideas, you know, possibly put, you know, future collaborations. And that's how it happened, you know, like a co authors on my books or like, you know, how I found the contributors to my edited book. It was, it was that because, you know, if you are open to meet new people and exchange ideas, you, you gain a lot, you gain a lot back, you widen your network. So that, that was it. And of course I, I had to work you know, in the evenings and weekends on my publications. I'm pretty sure everybody else does exactly the same. You don't have the work life balance at all at this career stage. You have to, you have to work much harder in order to secure, you know, permanent positions as well. Whether it's right or not, I don't think it's right. It shouldn't be like that. But at the moment that's the status quo and hopefully we collectively can change it somehow.

Sandrine: 33:18

And that's one that that's one of the biggest challenge, when you think about the progression of, of women in research, And, many women who reach a stage where, they may be able to transition to a fellowship often at an age where maybe they, have a partner or they getting kids or whatever. I come across many researchers, many PIs who really, want to support their researchers, really wants to support their students. and often the time that they spend, working, very closely with a student is not what is going to get rewarded necessarily for the promotion or the big grant and so on. So there is really a tension. in terms of what is rewarded, what people really care about in terms of who they want to be, as research leaders what's the guiding principle that you have, to keep a certain level of balance and not feel completely overwhelmed?

Iryna: 34:10

Well, I have two kids, so, you know, I have two children and they're quite young. They're in primary school, both of them. So it's it changes. It's pretty much everything because it changes your priority because your family, your family is your priority. It comes first, no matter what. And I totally agree with you. I mean, the, the academia is not very fair towards female researchers, female academics as yet. It's much improved, you know, like if you look back 10, 15 years, I mean, it's, it's a better place. So it's much more recognized, but we still don't have the balance, you know, when both partners in the relationship, they can take equal time off. I mean, the women still expected to just to do more, you know, at home and then try to balance it with the work. So it's it's improving probably slower than anybody would. So everybody would want, but We are getting there in a way, but for me, I must say, you know, I, I shared this views when I was doing my Aurora training. So, you know, after I had kids, I, I became even more confident in terms of expressing my views. about the work environment than before. Because, you know, I have a leverage now, you know, I have two children to look after, I have family, I have home, I have my career, I want to progress. So I, I became much more outspoken about things at the, you know, the committee meetings the staff meetings, et cetera. People are listening more. I think managers, they, they do listen more. It's still not changing fast enough in my view, but you know, at least we are on the right way. You know, we're going to the right direction. And I don't know. It's, it is a tricky thing, you know, because we need more support. Like when people coming back from parental leaves, they It all depends on the line manager. You know, at the end of the day, it's always a personal factor. It's a human factor. If you're lucky with your, you know, with your line manager, you will be fine because they, you know, they will understand what you're going through. And if some people are not that lucky, so they're, you know, their life is much more difficult. But as you said, it shouldn't be down to luck, you know, it shouldn't be down that everybody has equal support and equal opportunity when they come back from from leaves and career breaks. And if I'm totally honest with you, I think my career progression definitely slowed down when we were planning to have a family and afterwards. I mean, I could have taken, you know, opportunities were there. I just couldn't take them because I had young children at home, you know, or, you know, I was pregnant or something like that. So, yes. We need more programs like, you know, Daring to Dare, more programs like Aurora, but I also think, you know, they are, they're female only, but I think we need to maybe include male colleagues as well, so they can see and learn. You know, in the field, what's actually happening to their fellow female colleagues and how challenging this is to navigate their career progressions, because there are, you know, male Aurora mentors, and they are very passionate about promoting female academics in, in in the university, within, within the university environment, but I suppose we probably need to push for this change together. You know, bring everybody together. So people understand the challenges we are facing with career breaks. And yeah, I think it's just the action we should take together

Sandrine: 37:55

Hmm. Can I ask you Irina? you mentioned, the role of the line manager in your own career, who do you think has been the most influential in terms of supporting you in your progression? Because some people have informal mentors, some have, you know, really good colleagues.

Iryna: 38:11

I had. like excellent you know, my, my PhD supervisors were good. I mean, they were excellent because they gave me the freedom to do my research. I didn't really need to be supervised. I, I'm incredibly well organized and I know how to, you know, structure my days and how to achieve my goals. So they gave me this freedom, which I really appreciate it because some, some PhD students don't have it. Yeah. They have very strict in a way supervisors. So that worked for me. I mean, my line manager at my current job, he's just, he's excellent. He also gives me freedom of like flourishing because that's exactly what I, what I need and what I want. But I must say. Probably the biggest support for me was my partner because he's an academic too. So we grew together, you know, we met very long time ago when we were still students. So we grew as academics and researchers together and we were supporting each other and like learning from each other's mistakes, you know, like giving each other advice. So for me, he was my rock. Throughout my whole career and now as well when we are like, you know, much higher up in our career progression, but I was lucky again. We're coming back. We're coming back to luck Here, but I was lucky so we found each other at such an early stage of our lives and we supported each other throughout but I know that that's probably not the case for For many people but luck I think luck was on my side here, too

Sandrine: 39:40

So, what's next for you when you're thinking about, the role that you have now is in your institution. And I don't know whether you have already your own PhD student

Iryna: 39:49

yes, I supervise PhD students and yeah, some of them finished their PhD. I find it incredibly rewarding, you know, just to give back and nurture talent. And I'm also I'm the convener of the early career researcher group, which I built absolutely single handedly because when I started my job, there wasn't any provision for early career researchers. So I identified this gap and, you know, through hard work, no luck, very, very hard work over the years, we have a very established ECR group with annual funding. So, you know, over maybe the last five years, about 50. Early career researchers got the funding to buy themselves out of teaching, to go to conferences, to have an exhibition put up. So it's, it's incredibly rewarding, you know, just to give back and nurture them and have something tangible to give, because it's incredibly difficult for early career researchers to get any sorts of funding, you know, just even to go to the conferences anymore. So that's that's really good. I think the research group I, although I have PhD students, they are, they are working on the kind of area of my interest. And I think I'm applying for funding now, trying to consolidate my expertise in the area of personalization. And obviously when you have financial support from the founders, Things are becoming much easier because, you know, it's good for the university. So the, the management starts respecting you more and value you more, and it gives you freedom to just, you know, to operate and basically go up onwards and upwards. So that's, that's the plan. Maybe book number four is already on the horizon. Like talking to the publishers about green personalization and reducing consumption in the age of AI, what can we do coming, you know, from different disciplines, different point of views. So there are like lots of plans still, you know, but also their work life balance. because of, you know, my family and my, my children. I obviously prioritize that. I know sometimes it's not possible and you still work at times you probably shouldn't be working, but I have my goal and I'm very determined to make this happen, not just as a researcher, but as I said, as a world citizen, because I, feel that we, we reached the point when we need this all hands on deck mentality, when everybody starts contributing to slowing down climate change. And I feel as a designer, as an academic, as a researcher, as a mother, I feel responsible to pursue this path.

Sandrine: 42:34

And, and I suppose if we think about work life balance what matters is that there is a desire to really create change. So in a way, work may take more hours than, a regular job, but in a way the drive and the motivation to create change is really what makes this happen where, there isn't a fine line between work and life. If you were going to give your young self some advice about how to navigate that journey with more ease or, I don't know, with more confidence what would you tell your young self when you're starting on this, on this path?

Iryna: 43:10

I think I would tell myself just to grow a thicker skin. not to be so sensitive, particularly about rejections, because, you know, as academics, as researchers, we get rejection after rejection, be it the publication being rejected from a journal or a grant proposal. So I think I wish I had thicker skin earlier, you know, because sometimes, you know, I mean, the UK peer review system is not perfect. And often, you know, you get very, personal feedback. I'm good with constructive criticism because, you know, when you can learn from criticism, you, you know, you can improve, you know, you can go forward, you can push for better. But sometimes you get this very personal feedback, which doesn't really make sense. It's just, you know, but everybody, everybody had it. I'm pretty sure every single researcher had it. And I, I, you know, I used to take it too personally, you know, when And I was younger. Then now, now it's kind of, oh, well, it's one of those. Okay, I'll just move on. But, you know, I think I keep telling my my PhD students, my early career researchers, just saying, try not to pay attention to that that much. You will get rejections on a regular basis. That's part of life. It's part of your job description. So just don't be too sensitive. Try to find constructive criticism and move on, improve and move on.

Sandrine: 44:35

Through the committee, the early career research group that you've created, you, you have lots of conversations with you know, early career researchers. So what is the thing that you would want them to hear out from, from your experience and your great wisdom on being where you are now?

Iryna: 44:51

I'm not sure about great wisdom. You know, I'm learning every day because, you know, in the line of research, what I like that it's never boring. Yeah. If you're a researcher, they're always in the world, which keeps you excited and enthusiastic in making change or achieve something, you know, go for something, the conferences, I always tell them, network, don't be shy, because particularly if you go on the conference, and I know, I know it's difficult for some people, you know, and particularly if you're a neurodivergent, you know, it's, it's a fine balance about networking, but I just, Always tell them you find the way which works for you, how you can network, whether it's online, whether it's in person, some, somehow else. I mean, if you need help, talk to me, we will try to figure out how to help you to network. But I think this exposure to professional networks are absolutely paramount for any researcher, not just for, you know, self promotion and promoting your research, but also learning. Because there are lots of things happening. You go on a conference, you meet somebody who is completely unrelated to your subject area, but you learn. Identify something which you can do together. And that's how, you know, this different disciplines, they come together to solve the problem, because I think we need to maybe refocus. a little bit and start looking at big questions from different disciplines point of view and trying to solve it. I think this time when researchers were just sitting in their groups in their labs and working on one thing, it passed. I think we really need to come together. and try to solve the most pressing problems we have, the inequality in our society, fake news, AI, you know, out there deepfakes consumption, climate change, biodiversity laws, all sorts of things. We can, you know, as, as academics, as researchers, we are very, very well educated and very well equipped to come together and as a force trying to solve this current pressing issues we are facing.

Sandrine: 46:46

The last question that I would like to ask you is If you were going to boil down to one thing that gives you joy in research, what would you say?

Iryna: 46:57

It's never boring. It's just never boring. I'm, you know, I'm really excited. Every time I go somewhere, I meet people. It's just, you learn, you know, it's a constant intellectual development. You know, you're always challenged. you're always trying to look at different problems from, oh, out of box. Oh, I never thought about it that way. Oh, it's interesting that I talked to you. So yeah, I think life is never boring as a researcher.

Sandrine: 47:25

Thank you very much. It's really nice having had this conversation with you. I'm really grateful that, that you gave us the time for this. Very good luck with your with your work.

Iryna: 47:36

Thank you for having me. Thanks.

Sandrine: 47:38

Thank you.