67- Dr Catarina Henriques- Drilling down what to focus on

Dr. Catarina Henriques is a Wellcome Trust/Royal Society Sir Henry Dale Fellow at The University of Sheffield. Her journey into a research career was ignited by a TV documentary on telomeres she watched as a teenager, which fueled her enduring interest in the biology of aging. Transitioning from Portugal to the UK to pursue her research ambitions involved numerous daring conversations.

Not many people can claim they visited embassies to figure out where to study at university, but Catarina did. Before the internet made information readily available, exploring educational opportunities required courage and perseverance. With the support of the British Council, Catarina discovered various Genetics degrees offered across UK universities.

As an undergraduate, Catarina was on a promising path, with a degree in genetics, ample laboratory experience, and strong recommendations. However, personal circumstances required her to return to Portugal to support her family. This detour didn't deter her from her goals.

Determined to work on telomeres, Catarina reached out to anyone involved in related research, leading her to a cancer research group. She maintained connections with a Principal Investigator (PI) at The University of Glasgow, collaboratively developing a PhD project that bridged her interests and academic relationships. Although her PhD project wasn't directly on telomeres, she kept her eye on developments in that area.

After completing her PhD, Catarina stayed in Portugal, joining a new research group transitioning from yeast to zebrafish as a model organism. This period was instrumental in building her confidence to develop her own research team.

She didn't wait for her fellowship to end to explore future opportunities. Instead, she networked and visited research groups to identify potential hosts for a fellowship. Despite an initial unsuccessful fellowship application, her groundbreaking research showing that zebrafish age similarly to humans caught the attention of The University of Sheffield.

A group at The University of Sheffield was at the time looking to recruit a senior academic for zebrafish research; they contacted her PI who put her in touch with the Sheffield team. She was then recruited via some MRC funding that the department held.

 The timing worked in her favour as the institution at the time was running a round of internally funded fellowship recruitments which she was encouraged to apply for and was successful in gaining. This was an exciting period, as Catarina really felt that people were interested in her work and were prepared to help her, but also she was surrounded by many other researchers with expertise in zebrafish. Her momentum in building her research niche could be fuelled by colleagues in her department.

Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking:

• Do you know what brings you energy in your research life?
• What would be the risk in focusing on key research activities instead of scattering yourself and feeling overwhelmed?
• How do you handle conversations about research ownership? 

Some reflections to ponder on the transition to being a Principal Investigator

Embracing Uncertainty and Authenticity

Even with a fellowship, there is a long journey to feeling secure in research careers. Learning to live with this level of uncertainty is a challenge.

Research fellows in their attempt to secure more permanent positions will contribute to their departments in many ways from admin roles to teaching. Excelling on all front is challenging. Knowing whether we have done enough is difficult to assess. 

For Catarina, like many early career academics, there is a risk of throwing yourself all over the place in your academic activities because you may feel th

Transcript

Sandrine: 0:00

1, 2, 3, go. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Dear listeners, you are on the podcast Research Lives and Cultures. I'm Rin Sub your host, and today I am with me, Katarina. Enrique from from the University of Shefield. Welcome on the podcast Catrina.

Catarina: 0:30

thank you sand, and thank you for the invitation. It's my great pleasure to be here today.

Sandrine: 0:35

So can you get us started and, can you tell us, what sort of position do you have right now and how did you make it there

Catarina: 0:44

yes. So I am currently a research fellow at the University of Sheffield. I am a Henry Dell Research Fellow, and what that means is that I've been funded by the Welcome Trust and the Royal Society on a Junior PI faculty. Fellowship essentially that helped me transition from being a postdoc to becoming an independent group leader leading my own lab. This was achieved, I think it was in 2000 and and 16, that, that I, that I sort of secured this fellowship. And just before that fellowship I had secured another junior PI fellowship led by the University of Sheffield, so the Vice Chancellor's fellowship scheme. So I'm kind of going back from the present all the way to the past,

Sandrine: 1:28

you did your PhD in Glasgow, if I, if I remember correctly, but you come from Portugal originally what's made you decide to, live your, your home country and, undertake, research career, abroad cuz you know, living, you know, beauty full Portugal to come and live, in cold UK is not necessarily, something that everybody wants to do. So what, what was the, the pool

Catarina: 1:51

so. I actually wanted to be a PE teacher. I was very much into sports and that was my thing, but then I've always had the curiosity and always read lots and lots of biology books. And one day silly as it might sound, I did see a documentary on TV about telomeres and telomeres and telomerase, and this was in the nineties. It was shortly after the, the Noble Prize was, was given into three people who discovered the structure and function of telomerase and, and. At around that time I was already starting to have some emotional reckoning about this whole thing of, of getting old and having all these diseases and not being able to live the life I wanted and, and death, as horrible as that might sound. This was tormenting me from an early age and having seen this documentary really opened my eyes as to what biology can do to understand the fundamental mechanisms of aging and more importantly, not just understand them, but potentially modulate them in the lab and who knows therapeutically in, in real life, in humans. And that's really what started pulling me towards biology and, and, and really specifically a research on aging. So I was about 15 and then it was about trying to understand, okay, how can I have a research career. In this field. And I started asking my professors, my teachers at high school, and no one really knew, to be honest. This was, again, in Portugal there was probably one fundamentally really good institute research institute. And if I tried to find out what was going on, there was no real research on aging. So it was kind of abstract what was going on. And so I had to find out steps that I had to take. And it was, it was a journey and it was really through conversations with peers, family teachers until someone told me, well, you don't have to stay in Portugal if there isn't the career that you want in Portugal. And, and obvious as that might seem now, it wasn't something that I ever thought about. And it's not something that high school kids are being. Told Really, and not in Portugal, and definitely not in the nineties. So I said, well, okay, okay, so what do I have to do about that? And literally the following week I went to many different countries embassies and asked, knocked on the door and asked, what do I have to do to go to your country and do a degree in biology? In genetics? I

Sandrine: 4:32

Wow, that's incredible. Mm-hmm.

Catarina: 4:34

I went to the em, the Finland Embassy which I was interesting because the way they looked at me was, what is wrong with you? What do you mean you want to come to Finland to study biology? No, you know, your degree is not going to be taught in English. So that's how I narrowed it down eventually to to Britain because it was a language that I could speak. Thankfully everyone in Portugal is taught English from a very early age. And so I thought I could handle that. So eventually I went to the British Council and they were extremely helpful. They gave me a map of the country and they said, well, all you have to do is choose where you want to go and apply to university. And then it was a question of choosing between England and Scotland. And the, the choice was very easy because in Scotland, if you were a European student, you didn't pay tuition fees. And so that was an easy choice because I was actually already at that point, living on my own. I had left my parents' house. I was having a job to sustain myself throughout high school, and I knew I would've had to continue to, to, to, you know provide for myself. So that was a very, very big decision that helped make, helped me make that decision, not paying tuition fees. And then it was about choosing the best university in Scotland to do a degree in genetics. So that's the first part of the journey and how I got how I ended up in the uk.

Sandrine: 5:58

I found that fascinating. I've never actually heard a story like this two thing really struck a chord with me, this idea of really, really early on and, and in a way, almost like a, an existential fear is a trigger for becoming interested in something. And, and also the, the role of science journalism and I've, I've heard somebody else actually on the podcast who was inspired through an article in the New Scientist. But for you it was a documentary. And then the second thing that really strikes me is you are talking about a period where, Google searches were not what they were now, probably didn't even exist then. And finding the information I don't know, really pushing doors and seeing, okay, I'm just going to go and find out what's possible. And, not having the information, it's like, well, it's not going to stop me. I'm just going to explore, find that really fascinating.

Catarina: 6:47

Yeah, so this was pre-mobile phones. And actually the first time I opened an internet account was at the British Council itself, so that I could apply to the universities. So the, to the Yuca system, and I, it was a Hotmail account I remember very, very clearly

Sandrine: 7:04

So, so you did your degree in Scotland, then what were the steps that you took in term of actually starting your research on, on telomeres?

Catarina: 7:12

So that took me a long time to do research on tir. I only managed to get there in my postdoc actually. So through university I was really fortunate that yes, the weather was absolutely appalling. I'm not going to lie to you. Everyone I know that was from Southern Europe in Glasgow was on some level of antidepressants. So it was hard. But the university was absolutely amazing. The teachers were amazing, so engaging. It was a completely different culture. weren't just asked to memorize things. We were actually asked to think, and whereas perhaps I feel that students, at least this is my anecdotal experience with students, I think students take it a lot for granted here, the amazing teaching that they are exposed to. But for me, having come from Portugal being, being exposed to such an amazing university, it was really, really exciting. And I really held onto that opportunity with everything I had. So I went to all the lectures, I took extra modules and I engaged in every piece of research that I could. So I started doing research in, in my summer holidays from year one. And the first research experience I had was actually grinding up samples of birds feathers from the Antarctic, you know, British Antarctic survey

Sandrine: 8:37

Oh wow.

Catarina: 8:38

and mashing up yeah, bits of food that they had regurgitated and had been collected years before and you were frozen. So, you know, really not the type of stuff that you want to do necessarily.

Sandrine: 8:50

the glamor, not the glamorous experiments, but basic things that people need to do to explore research, their research questions. Yeah.

Catarina: 8:58

yeah. And, and you really, you know, it put me, it was the first salary I had as a researcher because they paid me, which was amazing. I was, I was attending lab meetings. I could see how the research, a research project developed, I had really good mentors that I could ask all these questions about career. Oh. So, so how did you get there? You know, you were a lecturer, you studying stable isotopes in a, one of the biggest facilities of isotopes stable isotope research in the country. How does that work? So it was through having the opportunity to participate in research, even in, even if, in completely different fields from what I wanted. That started, you know, enriching my, my, my, my tool set really of, of knowing how things worked in a different country and the things that were available. And importantly, I started. Collating recommendation letters from these labs, which is so important because more than just your degree mark or whatever, how you go on, how you get an opportunity to get into a lab is really through recommendation letters. Because someone who's going to hire you, they wanna know how you are in the lab, how you are as a researcher, how you are as a colleague, as a team player. And it was through these experiences that I started having this CV and that really helped me move forward. And I, and I found out, and then eventually, well through many different family difficulties and I had to go back to Portugal even though I actually wanted to do a, a master's and I had been given an opportunity to go to the Carols K Institute I had to cancel that and go back to Portugal to take care of my sister. And I actually had her custody for a few years. And, and that meant that my plans had to be adopted. I went back to Portugal and to do my PhD, there was only one source of funding and still is in Portugal for, for PhDs and postdocs. you have to apply for the funding. So you, you basically find a supervisor who writes a project with you, and then you apply to the, the state. It's the, the science foundation, let's say, of the country. And they select. And the, the rate of success was, is extremely lower, was at least at the time. So what I did was, again, I went back to Portugal and I was trying to find out if anyone was working on telomeres at all in the country or anything related. And again, I went back, I remember going back to Portugal on a, I think it was a Christmas holiday or summer holiday. I don't remember. But I, again, I literally. Went and knocked on every door of every researcher that I could find out online that had some connection, had published at some point in something related to telomeres or chromosomes or genome instability. So I knocked on all their doors, hospitals, institutes, universities, and eventually they pointed me in a direction of someone who was a young PI who wasn't working on telomeres but was working in cancer, which is the other side, is the other side of the coin for aging And cancer, actually shared many of the same fundamental mechanisms and manipulating the mechanisms that favor aging are sometimes and most likely unlocking the mechanisms that protect us from cancer. And that is why it's so hard to manipulate. So I ended up finding this, this, this junior pi That worked in cancer and knocked on his door and through conversations, came up with some sort of project related to a project that I had sort of not started, but some conversations that I had with another researcher in Glasgow. So I really wanted to ensure that, okay, I had to go back to Portugal, but I didn't wanna close my international doors. So I, I devised the project with my PI in Lisbon and API in Glasgow, and together we came up with a project and applied for this funding

Sandrine: 13:00

So it's really interesting. in some ways you were already a research leader from the start, having an idea of actually I have to be interested in you see a lot of PhD student who applies for PhD studentship on a project that a PI has designed already. Which they may completely be interested in, but it's not their project from the start. And so in what you're describing of your experience, you were leading and designing the research from the very beginning, which you know, in social sciences and arts and humanities. That's what people do. But in the sciences it's actually pretty rare.

Catarina: 13:36

Yes. And you know, you know, Sandrine, I only realized how rare it was when I then Eventually moved back to the UK to start my own lab, but at the time, this was the only reality that I have ever encountered. And everyone who did their PhD in Portugal would've done it through this mechanism. So there isn't such a thing of PhD projects advertised for, for people who already have grants, or if there are, this is extremely rare. Usually people apply for fellowships, and this is the same for postdocs. So that I got my postdoc fellowship exactly the same way. And I wouldn't say I led the design of the project, per se, the science, but I certainly led on asking the questions and bringing two PIs together so that we could design a project that worked biolo in, in terms of biological questions, but also in terms of logistics. So I could spend some time in Glasgow and some time in Lisbon. And, and in the end, In the end, it's still my most cited paper. To date was what I published in my PhD in blood. So it was very exciting. Challenging, but very exciting.

Sandrine: 14:43

It's almost like, I mean, basically you engineer the collaboration.

Catarina: 14:48

yes. But it was also, I would also like to say that, and, and it's something that you will recognize as a pattern in our conversation. So when I was finishing my degree, an amazing thing at Glasgow University is that you can spend some months in a lab, and that's part of your degree. And so you have a final year project in a real lab. And I had the opportunity to go to what I still consider one of the, if not the best lab I've ever been in. Certainly the best PI I've ever had of professor Dave Gillespie at the Beatson Institute in Glasgow. And. It was such an amazing experience. I have learned so much about well, research culture how a lab can work and how people can be nice and supportive to each other. And it doesn't have to be a tense horrible environment. So that really set the tone of like, okay, this is what I want my lab to be like. It was very organized. You had protocols extremely well detailed. All the fridges were really organized. You knew where everything was. The PI had his open door. You could go in at any time and just ask questions. And I mean, I was an undergrad, right? I mean, who am I at the time? Nothing. And I could literally go in and speak to him. And it was through conversations with him that he suggested this particular PI in Glasgow that might be good to speak to if I wanted to collaborate. On a project with this other PI in Lisbon because they were working on similar mechanisms.

Sandrine: 16:19

after your PhD, eventually you came back to the uk. So was it on a fellowship, on a postdoc?

Catarina: 16:25

So my PhD was mixed in Lisbon and in Glasgow, but for Postoc, I actually stayed in Portugal. So I stayed in Portugal because because of family reasons. But also, meanwhile, a PI who was in, in, was doing his postdoc in London then had recently moved back to, to Lisbon and he had started a lab working on telomeres and genome stability. And that was literally, I think maybe one year or two before I finished my PhD. And I was keeping an eye out for things, you know, what's going on in my country and what's going on. In Spain and other countries, where am I going to go next? And I really did not wanna go back. I didn't really go to the States, it was too far away. I didn't wanna work with mice, which is, it was a personal,

Sandrine: 17:13

Choice and.

Catarina: 17:14

choice that I made really early on in my degree. In fact, I failed all the modules that involved my work. I did not do them. And this, and this PI in Portugal was working on, on telomeres and genome stability using yeast as a model. And through conversations and, and going to conferences and friends of friends, I, I came to, to discover that they had acquired a zebrafish telomerase Mutant. And they were in the process of starting to characterize it. And this was really exciting because if you are in a telomere field, you actually know that. The mouse is not a great model to study this particular mechanisms because they are really different from humans in that sense. And so I went through university, scratching my head and thinking, what is going to be the model organism I'm going to use to, to study telomeres? So I actually thought that in the end I was going to just have to do it through studying human immunology. So we're using blood because it was a tissue that was easily accessible from humans. And in fact, my PhD was in in, in a blood cancer. So it was in childhood leukemia. And I thought that I was going to have to just study humans like that because there was no good model. So the, the possibility of discovering a new vertebrate model that could be used as an aging model to study telomere function in aging was extremely exciting. And so I joined this group. And that was what my postdoc was about. It was, again, we had to write a, well, we had to write a postdoc fellowship. So all of this is not like, oh, I just applied to a project. Right. So we had to write, we wrote two grants together, one on cancer, one on aging, and I wrote my fellowship. And at the time, if I'm not mistaken, I think 15 fellowships were given in the country.

Sandrine: 19:06

Not too lot. Yeah. Gosh.

Catarina: 19:08

Not a lot. I mean, it's not a big country, but still.

Sandrine: 19:10

Still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Catarina: 19:12

And, and I was one of them. And the two grants that we did right together, we did get, so his lab suddenly went from not being just a yeast lab, but also a zebrafish lab. And it was, and, and I was at the beginning of all of that. So I had the opportunity of really training all the students that came through it, starting new protocols, starting to work on a new model. And, and, and it was extremely challenging, of course, because I had never worked with animals before. But in the end, it gave me the necessary confidence and tools to actually, you know what, if I have to do this again for my own lab, I know how to do it. And so that was in Portugal, I did not, I did not come back to the UK until I was finishing my postdoc. So this was, so I had a five year fellowship, but after four years, I was already starting to try and apply for, for, for PI fellowship. So I wrote different projects and I applied to different countries. I went on a tour in Germany, which I, I like to think of almost like a. I was touring with my band, but it was just me and my PowerPoint going around Germany and trying to, sell myself as a researcher and my project so that I could have an institute willing to host me so that I could apply for funding. So it's not, so, it's, it's a really

Sandrine: 20:32

Hmm.

Catarina: 20:33

difficult mechanism. So I never went on an interview for a position.

Sandrine: 20:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Catarina: 20:38

I was, I was basically interviewing so that they would agree to

Sandrine: 20:43

To be the host. Yeah. To be the host. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Catarina: 20:46

to apply for fellowships. And then eventually I got a few, and I, I applied for fellowships, but I didn't get any. And it was only through, I guess, serendipity really, that someone in Sheffield was wanting to develop aging research using the zebrafish model and. And at the time, because we were one of the, well, we were the first to publish that zebrafish aged in aase dependent manner, like humans too. So that was my first paper for my postdoc. So actually, if you wanted to establish zebrafish as an aging model in your institute,

Sandrine: 21:26

You were the person. You were

Catarina: 21:28

the people who were doing it. So there was really no one else. There was a group in Spain that followed suit really quickly. But that was it. That was just us. So, so the people in Sheffield contacted my PI and actually were asking him if, if he knew of anyone who, who would be willing to move because they wanted to hire and they wanted someone to, to come and establish it here. And I obviously trying to cut a long story short, but basically I came to give a talk and I was hired pretty much on the spot.

Sandrine: 22:00

So you were hired as a Phil, as a fellow.

Catarina: 22:03

I was hired. So there, at the time, there was funding from from M rrc available for what is called the Center for integrated Musculoskeletal Aging Research. And there was funding available for a lecturer actually, and for actually a much more senior position. And they were looking for someone more senior than me, but there was no one, so they got me instead. And they, so I, I basically was hired as a fellow with some startup money, and initially it was a two year contract, but I was automatically told that, well, what you should aim to do after is to apply for the Vice Chancellor's Fellowship scheme, which is a five year fellowship scheme ran by the university. And we can support you in that. So again, peers and you know, pe having people interested in you, in your research and who are committed to that really make a difference. So, and I had no idea what these fellowships were or, or anything. And so I came with a two year contract hoping to apply for these other fellowships. And, and yes, I was really lucky. And then I got the Vice Chancellor Fellowship and after that I got the Henry Dell Fellowship.

Sandrine: 23:19

Wow, fa, fascinating story. and now. So you've got, a welcome trust fellowship, but when did you feel that you were really setting up your own research group? From the very beginning when you, when you arrive in Sheffield or,

Catarina: 23:32

yes. It was so, very much so. So it was from April. No, may, May, 2015 technically was when my contracts started at the university and I was effectively starting my own lab. Yes, ordering everything from scratch, setting up all the protocols I had. Meanwhile, started sending some fish over and growing my lines here. And then my department supported me, um, with, yeah, with startup funds. And then in my vice chancellor of Fellowship, one of the things I negotiated with the department was to secure salary for a research assistant. So it was through that and, and then that continued with Henry Dell. And it's the same person that has been with me since then, and absolutely essential.

Sandrine: 24:20

That's incredible. Quite, quite, quite a journey that you've had so. When you're starting your group, you have like a starting point Id, I mean, often when people apply for a fellowship, there is the fellowship project, but as you build your research you know, your research empire, obviously it's about taking things in different direction and creating an umbrella of what your research group is about. And I'm sure that it's not necessarily very straightforward process. So what do you think has been your approach from, okay, I'm interested in Teleme, I've got this different methodology, I'm doing, teleme research in zebra fish. How do you feel that you've been able to expand the scope of what you do more broadly

Catarina: 25:02

So when I was towards the end of my, of my postdoc, I made an observation that was really intriguing to us at the time. And I remember very clearly where I was, I was in Newcastle learning how to do a. A certain type of technique to label telomeres in a fluorescent way in tissue sections. And while looking under the microscope, there were these cells that were so bright, they had so long, the telomeres were super, super long, and they, they shown like, just like lights on a Christmas tree. It was really fascinating. And we didn't know what these cells were. And during the time I was spending in my postdoc, when we were publishing and refinishing our projects and papers describing the model and all of that, we still didn't know what these cells were. We thought that perhaps they were stem cells because stem cells are known to have longer tels. And this is really important because they, they have to proliferate to give rise to the other cells in the tissue. But I thought there was something else. There were, there were other indirect. Experiments and things I was reading and conversations I was having. That was I with, I thought it was something else. So I left my postdoc with this observation that was left unanswered. And so I took that with me and that was my starting point. I wanted to find out what those cells were and I already had a hint and, and I thought they were immune cells and that was the first thing I aimed to do. And in Sheffield there was, Sheffield is amazing for zebrafish research. It's one of the leaders in the world and some of the most important people using zebrafish as a model to study immunology are in Sheffield and develop models in Sheffield. So that was great. So I could use all these transgen lines to find out about these cells potentially. And another beautiful moment at the microscope when I did a staining for immune cells and my telomeres, and there was a complete colocalization between these beautifully shining telomere, bright telomere cells and all the immune cells. And so I established my lab to focus on tissue repair and immunity in aging from, so taking the immune perspective, how is it that immune cells in your tissue, and this was particularly in the gut, so this was the, the tissue in which I found these cells more strikingly. And so I had that approach. That's how I narrowed it down. And we know that immunity is really important for tissue repair. Tissue repair is impaired with aging. Tel use are important in aging. How is that, that these things connect? And that's how I, I built my, my niche in a way. And, and then things started mushrooming from there because of course there's different tissues, there's different immune cells, there's different types of repair and, and, and, and yeah. And I'm still in on that journey and I don't know where it's going to take me.

Sandrine: 28:00

One of the things that many postdocs ask themselves is, the type of conversation that they need to have with their PIs in term of, okay, what do I take in the future for my fellowship? You know, we've worked on this together and, the PI may want to hang on to some of the stuff that the postdoc has been doing. So, did you feel that it was necessary to have conversation with your PI in term? Okay. I'm feeling really intrigued. Curious about this. You know, these cells that light up so, so much, and I really want to carry on. Was there a conversation? How did you do this?

Catarina: 28:36

It was mixed. It was not an easy process. First it was not a process that I ever thought about from the beginning, and I wish I had. No one really to told me I should be thinking about this from the beginning. And, and equally, I don't think my PI at the time really thought about it because it really didn't have that experience of a postdoc finishing and going on to become a pi. So it was new for both, and we were brought together through our passion of the, of, of the theme of the questions, and that's what drove us. And so it wasn't, it wasn't easy. It could have been a lot better, but ultimately I think with time I've always kept and I, I still hold to that, that it's best to collaborate, then to compete and that is how research works and that's what I want to do. So I've always believed that if. If there are common questions and common tools, collaboration is is important, but it wasn't a formal agreement. It was just something that anyone could have taken because we had already published the observation, so technically anyone could have asked the questions further, and, and, and so that's, that's what I did.

Sandrine: 29:54

It's funny because this is one of the things that when thinking about this leadership program that I'm running, I'm getting, all these new PIs to be thinking about, because in a way, having this conversation, it doesn't need to be a big deal, but having an openness you know, I've come across postdoc, really agonized about having this conversation with their peers because they, they've got in their head that the PI is going to say no, while actually it may be not. Necessarily hard, it's just actually having them so that there is clarity and understanding of what people want.

Catarina: 30:26

Yes. I mean, I only have one experience, so I, I don't know. I've, I've, it was certainly not easy. I, having had that experience, what I have tried to do in my lab is have that conversation with everyone from day one. From undergraduate students all the way to PhDs so that it's clear what what our mutual expectations are, what plans are, where research is going to go, and what do, what do they want to do, and how we or they can imagine their, their future in research and in, in this particular field that they're working at the moment. So I try and have those conversations with everyone. And in fact, the PhD student who I've had, who is now a postdoc and who is writing her fellowship to become independent, we had that conversation straight away and she brought in her own ideas. And there is a lot of research that I did with her that I would not have done on my own, and that was agreed from the beginning because I made sure that that agreement was there, that she could then take that with her, should she want to. And I would be very, very happy to keep my doors open for future collaboration. If she, if she should choose to do so, but I kind of, because of my own experience and others people's experiences, I made sure, I'm making sure that in my lab that is as, as clear and and transparent as possible.

Sandrine: 31:51

that's good to hear. So, one of the great challenge when you are a pi, and I mean, I will not classify you as a new PI now, I mean, you've been a PI for some time, but when you're thinking about these early years in setting up your lab, how did you find the transition of letting go of some of the experimental work and basically handing on the,, experimental reign to somebody else? Because, you are really passionate about your topic, you're really curious about finding stuff out. But obviously when you're recruiting a, a technician, a PhD, or a postdoc, everybody's got their own reason for starting a project. Everyone's got different type of motivation. And, you know, as somebody who is very curious and really excited about the work, this excitement, this motivation may not be present or may be very different in somebody else. So how, how do you approach that when you see somebody who you feel maybe not performing as well? Or pushing themself as well as you will do yourself.

Catarina: 32:55

It is certainly a challenge. And so there's, there's multiple layers to that question. In a way, even though I've been a PI for a while now, I've not had many staff and that is because the nature of the fellowship funding that I've had actually doesn't cover for much more else. So I have one research assistant who I've been funding since the beginning, and that's it in terms of what my fellowship covers, it covers my salary and her salary. And then everyone else has to, that has joined the lab, has been through independent PhD fellowships. I've, I've only had one PhD student who then went on to become a postdoc and did one one year of postdoc in my lab. And that was through my fellowship actually, that I've managed to It flex the money to pay her salary as a postdoc, it's actually quite difficult when you are a sort of new group to recruit these high flyer postdocs that are coming with their own money or are competitive enough to apply for independent fellowships, postdoctoral fellowships to come into your lab. So I've not had that experience yet. So I mostly had undergraduates in, in placements, masters and, and PhDs. How, how I've dealt with letting go of exp of, of the experiments. To be honest, I'm still at least 70% in the lab, so I am still the expert in my lab. So there's no technique in my lab that I, I don't do myself apart from RNA and C in which my research assistant is an expert on. And I've, I'm happy to delegate essentially. I am really passionate about the questions and about the results if I trust the person, and that is the most essential thing in the lab is trust between lab members. I train everyone to the best ability that I can. I spend a lot of time training people, giving them a lot of attention, and a lot of one-to-one training. Once that's done and they start having the opportunity to do experiments by themselves, then I start asking questions and asking to see their results and asking them to think about it and try and explain it. And through this process, a trust is developed. If that trust is developed, then I am so, so happy to have another pair, pair of hands in the lab generating data. I cannot tell you how happy I am, so I have no issue at all delegating exper experiments because all I want is the data to analyze, to answer questions. So I have no trouble with that. long as there is distrust. Now this is not always possible. Because especially when you are having people in your lab who are so inexperienced, and, and, and this is, this is a big, a big challenge I think for, for research fellows. And I know I'm not the only one and I'm know many of my colleagues are in the same position. So I think one key aspect of actually career progression, and again, I don't know if I'm going to make it because of that, you need a bigger funding scheme to hire people or, or you are already, you know, established and really famous and everyone wants to come to your lab because you publish in nature every year. Now that's not gonna happen when your lab is made out of two people essentially and some transitioning undergrad students, right? So it's building a career in a very way,

Sandrine: 36:19

a, so in a way for you, the next step is to get that, that bigger grant to be able to recruit a couple of post-doc and another technician or something like that.

Catarina: 36:27

yes. Because I'm not there yet, despite having been doing this for eight years, I'm not there yet. And, and, and that is, even though being a research fellow is absolutely amazing, it doesn't come with, all these things give as a given, right? So it's up to you actually. And it's very difficult to produce the amount of, of data required to publish in really high impact publications and to be able to compete internationally. It's, it's not like baking cakes, right? You're following a recipe and you're going to get a known result. It's not like that, right? So it, it takes a really long time when, when you eventually find someone in your lab who doesn't thrive the way you would wish them to. It is, it is really hard and you can only do what you can. But ultimately, I found in my particular experience that. A person either has that or it doesn't. You cannot teach excitement. You cannot teach motivation. And so that is one of the key things I try to ascertain from the first conversations is exactly how much do you want this really.

Sandrine: 37:39

It's interesting because through the past that you've had, you fought quite hard, in term of accessing your own funding and, you knocking on doors and, in a way there is a sort of a. I don't, maybe, I will call that survival instinct, and maybe it's not the right term, I don't know. But there is a sense that to get to where you are now, you know, it's not been plain sailing. The drive that you needed to have. And sometime, people who try to apply for PhD, maybe in the same university where they've done the undergrad, they've not necessarily had to fight as much as maybe you had. It doesn't mean they're not motivated, but in a way it takes a lot to go on that journey of changing country and,, and accessing funding in the way that you had. And I was interesting to ask you in term of the negotiation that you've had, you know, when you were setting your group, when you're recruited as a fellow, there are often lots of conversation, with head of department, or manager in term of accessing research space and all that. Can you tell us a little bit about the experience that you've had in term of this kind of more? Practical, kind of logistical negotiation that may need to, to happen.

Catarina: 38:48

Yes, so, so if you remember when I, when I first came, it was in 2015, and so I went through basically these, I, I already had these conversations and negotiations even before I applied to the, the sort of biggest fellowship. I had the welcome trust one, and I think I was very fortunate in the sense that I had two. PIs from different departments who were based in different buildings, who were both interested in my research. And in fact, these were the two PIs who wanted to, to bridge the aging research using the zebrafish model. So I effectively had access to two mentors who worked in different spaces. And I was offered a space in these two locations. So I, I effectively, for one year, I had a lab in, in the medical school and a lab in first court in the, in the Bateson Center where the fish are. And I maintained it in parallel for about a year because I still wasn't sure which one would be the best for me. On one hand at the medical school, I had direct access to the histology unit, which I still use a lot. I had the fax, the, the, the flow cytometry unit. I had some microscopes. The other location offered me direct contact with all the PIs working with Debra Fish at the university. So all the sort of shared expertise was there. The fish were there, which obviously I had to go and, and see them every day. And a lot of the microscopes I used were actually there, not at the med school. So I, I had two really good options to, to choose from. And in the end, after that year, I chose to be near the fish because logistically it was actually really difficult to transport the fish across, bringing them across the road. It was a lot of traveling. Didn't make any sense. And, and I was given space in, in, in the other location. And, and throughout time I've moved a few times, well, two times I moved lab, moved office, but it's generally been positive the, the experience I had in, in that sense. But I know that it's not like that for everyone. But my personal experience was positive on that. And, and the, the, the negotiations with the head of department at the time when I moved in, I was really very fortunate, again, with the startup money that I was given and negotiating this, this, the, the research assistant salary. And again, the reason I had these conversations was because I was being well mentored, right? So I had these two experienced PIs telling me what could and could not be done, and giving suggestions of what I could or could not ask for. I mean, coming from Port, again, I had no idea. People were talking to me about underwritten contract and I had no, I, I didn't know what it was. I had to look in the dictionary to see what underwritten meant. There was no such thing in Portugal. People who are doing research, they are funding their own salaries all the time. And after about five years, the institutes have a rotation and you go somewhere else. So there is no such thing as underwritten contracts. It's extremely rare.

Sandrine: 41:58

that's a really important point cause you are not the first person who mentions that, you know, as an incoming fellow from another country, you don't necessarily understand, the rules of the games of academic careers within the country where you move because each country has its own way of, transitioning people from short-term contract to, open-ended contract and all that. And actually, if you haven't got somebody who is really, a very positive mentor, you may not hear about, that one conversation that you need to have or you know, what needs to be on your contract.

Catarina: 42:30

yes. I certainly would not have known, but but equally, I was lucky because at the time, both Vice Chancellor's Fellowship scheme and then later on the Welcome Trust Henry Dell Fellowship, one of their prerequisites was that the host university ensure that after your fellowship, you are transitioned to an open-ended contract. So they demanded that from the host. Now things have changed since then, and, and, and I don't think that's the case anymore. So it's even more important these days if you are a fellow starting and applying for these fellowships to really try and negotiate how, what's going to happen when I finish my fellowship. You know, what's gonna, am I, am I just going to follow a cliff? And, and it's, it's still, it's quite unnerving

Sandrine: 43:15

Another type of negotiation that may be necessary for fellows in order to be promoted, there is a need to get involved in various things and because you are still very heavily involved in actually doing the research, in the lab the balance between how you can contribute to your department and whether you can get involved in teaching. It's a very fine line between building the experience and being able to demonstrate that you've been involved with different things for your promotion case or whatever, you know, but at the same time actually keeping things manageable. So how have you approached that in term of keeping yourself sane in not overcommitting to stuff that you could be doing,

Catarina: 43:59

so I confess that I have been naive to many of these things for many years. When I started as a PI on a fellowship, I was absolutely sure that that's all I have to do. I have to deliver on my research. I have to publish the best, the best place possible, the best science, and I need to present my work. And I need to develop my, my, my academic esteem, let's say. So I have to develop myself as a pi. And that's it. Delivering my research is me performing. And so if I get money from funding, if I publish papers, that should be enough and that will ensure that I progress in my career, whatever shape that might take. And in fact, this was what I was advised to do by my mentors for a really long time. things change. So the, the, the academic scenario has changed quite significantly since I've joined, and whereas this was probably enough for a long time and arguably it still is, it's quite still quite I'm not sure yet, even though yes, there are all these other boxes to tick that you have to tick. And now these boxes have been materializing and more, more and more, which before they were even less clear. I don't know if someone publishes really well and gets a lot of money, Would that just override everything else? Ultimately, and actually, if you were to apply to a job somewhere else, what are they going for? A research pi, right? What are they going to look for in your cv? It's ultimately, where do you publish, how often you publish, how much money do you bring in, and who are you in the field? So after the last few years where I have started doing some teaching and being engaged in other activities I, I come back to the same place actually, where I need to focus on my research because ultimately that's where my passion lies. That's what I'm okay at doing. That's what I've been trained to do. And ultimately, if I don't succeed at that, no other box is going to tick. It's not gonna be a strong enough tick to override that. Whereas perhaps if I'm good enough on those, it might override others. And, and actually the reality is that you cannot possibly be excelling at all those things at the same time. It's just not possible. So I think the system still has a long way to go to really marry these inconsistencies. If, if you are 70% in a laba, technically by contract time, 85%, can you possibly do all the other things in the 15% time that you have left? It's not possible. And, and, and, and actually, is it even wise to be demanding that, of people whose expertise is not on that? Should you perhaps be asking that? A bit later on. And actually, should you be asking that of everyone or should you be having people who are really good at something do that thing and people who are really good at another thing to do that? Cuz there are people who choose teaching as their most. You know, where their passion really lies and where they find out actually I really wanna dedicate myself to developing more teaching. Other people realize that they really like policy and they really like management and they like those types of things. And I, I don't think that everyone is supposed to be good at everything. So I'm not sure. I don't have an answer to that. I don't know how I'm going to navigate that yet. I still haven't. I'm in the process.

Sandrine: 47:39

having run, lots of conversation with fellows and with new PIs, you know, people feel really torn. And what's been interesting this year in running this group of bringing all these research fellows together has been that through sharing their various expense that they've had in different departments, it's almost like, there are unwritten rules to academic progression and they're, because they're unwritten, these, these rules changes all the time. So depending on the head of department, depending on the faculty. Depending on the institution. So in a way, lots of people are really confused of where they should be spending their energy. And they're, they're trying to do everything and they're trying to tick all the boxes. But how do we have sustainable lives in academia? And often it's about accepting I can't be everything and I'm choosing to just focus on this few areas. And if I don't tick the box or the box that they want me to tick, so be it. As long as I feel well actually. The work that I do is fulfilling me.

Catarina: 48:41

Yes, it's definitely, I have definitely arrived at that point in the sense that I have been experi, experimenting different roles within the university, and I, I've not enjoyed, I. Them particularly. And so ultimately I have to, I have to understand how do I work, what do I need to be at my best? And if I'm not at my best, my research won't succeed. And this is what I am, I'm a researcher. I thought really hard to do the research that I do. I'm not going to sacrifice it for uh, other roles. That's not what I trained for. That's not what I want to do. It doesn't mean that I won't be, I won't do some of that, but it has to be in a way that does not compromise. My main objective. And actually what I've been coming to conclusion after many years of different collaborations and different experiences is that I, I need to choose the things in my life that give me energy that are positive and that foster my enthusiasm because that's all I have. I am not, You know, I am not super smart. I'm not a genius. I don't think I have any particularly superpower to succeed in this career. In fact, I'm not sure I will succeed. But the one thing I have is my passion and, and, and so I need to find the things that foster that and don't detract from that. If I find myself going on a path that is draining me emotionally, and that path exists all around us and we all have our different ones, I have found myself in those paths and I have had to really appreciate that this is not good for me. Yes, am I be kicking these boxes that maybe yet again, am I not? Because these boxes are a bit elusive, and ultimately, if it's going to remove my energy and my passion, which is absolutely essential for my creativity to be able to continue to drive my research. It is not a path I want to go down to. Maybe I will never become a professor. That's okay. But I will do what I want to do and it is my life and I have to have this positive energy in my life. Now, having said that, people move, and this is the sad reality of it, is that actually most people, I don't have actual numbers, but I know it's, it seems to happen a lot that the way people progress in their grades in the UK at least, you know, the reality that I see around me, that people just move.

Sandrine: 51:21

Yeah.

Catarina: 51:21

And whereas you are not okay to fit, to tick the boxes in your institution, you go and somewhere at another institution you apply for a job. And again, what they look at is do you publish? Do you get grants? And that's it. They're not gonna look at your academic citizenship, basically, whether you tick that box or not, whatever that might mean to different people. So people move. I would, I would like to stay in Sheffield, but you know, the world's a big place and, and I will prioritize being happy with, with what I want to do in my work life and in my family. And, and, and that's, that's it.

Sandrine: 51:58

you know, in what you're saying, it's almost like, I am in control, or I am taking control of my destiny and the way that I work, and I'm not going to be used by your system. If I don't fit in that system and they're not prepared to promote me or whatever it is, it's I'll go and see somewhere else. I think it's quite empowering because it's having congruence with the way you want to live your life. It's like, okay this is why I am, you know, whether it fits what you want or not.

Catarina: 52:25

At the moment. That's, that's, that's the reality that I'm living. That is the, the sort of place I've arrived. Yes.

Sandrine: 52:32

One of the things that I'm interested is the way that you, see your career next, what, what do you want next in your, in your research career?

Catarina: 52:42

I have lots of ideas for projects. I have lots of biological questions that I'm in the process of addressing. I have great collaborators. I am in the process of having more, so I really want to deliver on some publications and writing these projects and getting data. That's what I want to do so that I am competitive to apply for the next. The next big fellowship that is out there and I would like to make a good case for it. But I first want to finish some projects and I want to, to start new ones with, with these collaborators. And again, for me, the most important thing with collaborations has been to find people who align with my values more than being big shots in the field or whatever fields they are from. For me, that's not what seems to work. I, I like to align myself with people who have similar values on how they run their labs, how they run their research, how they are as people, usually people who are more or less at the same level in terms of career development so that the power dynamics is balanced and so that it's a win-win collaboration. There is no unbalanced, so both want it really badly. And that seems to work well. And I have quite a few ongoing, and I would like to have to see the data come forward. And when you work on aging with animals, things take a really long time because animals take ages to age. But Deborah Fish can live up to, you know, up to five years. So it's still a long time. But yeah, so I, I want to get to the bottom of some projects, data, publications, and apply for the next big thing, which can make it or break it. My lab really, if I don't get the next big thing, I have no idea where I will be.

Sandrine: 54:26

In the, last year there's, been lots of conversation about research culture and, lots of people think about research culture in different ways. if you're thinking about your own contribution to building a positive research culture, what, what's your contribution in this area?

Catarina: 54:44

So for me it's, it's honesty, transparency in the lab being clear about my expectations and, and having conversations with people all the time and understanding what their expectations are, I really encourage people to speak up all the time, have their ideas, disagree with my ideas to have a sort of positive research culture in the sense of. That there is diversity in ideas and it's not led in a dictator fashion. I've, I've been approached by lots of different researchers to serve as mentors, not because I've offered, but people have approached me and I feel, and most of them are females, so one way or another, somehow I ended up, I guess being a role model to them. I didn't ask for it, but I, you know, it seems to have worked. And so I'm very conscious of that of, of trying to, to act in a way to behave and be in a way that I think is responsible. And, and I try to learn from my experiences and things that have not worked for me and try not to be like that. And I think that's the, that's mostly it, really don't do to others. What you didn't like having done to yourself.

Sandrine: 55:58

And if, if you are sort, of, reflecting on, your career so far, you know, are there things that you wish you had done differently in the sense of, bringing some ease maybe to yourself in, navigating your, your career.

Catarina: 56:11

No, I've thought about that and actually don't think that it's a positive exercise to judge our past self with the hindsight from today. So having one thing, I think one place I think I've arrived is in trusting myself, trusting what I need to be the best that I can be. And so I have to trust that my past self did the best that she could do at the time with the information and the conditions in which she was in. So I think. I probably would've done the same things if I was in that position again. And if I hadn't done those things, I wouldn't be where I am today. And I'm pretty happy where I am today. So I don't like to judge my past in that sense.

Sandrine: 57:00

I think it's a beautiful way of talking about it. I really appreciate that. Thank you. And the, final question that I ask all my guests is, and in a way you. Already talk about that, through our conversation. But I'll still finish with this question of what gives you joy in research?

Catarina: 57:17

Oh dad, that. Just finding out that thing that no one has ever found out before. In my lab we have a thing called Data Fridays, and we aim that every Friday we have a new piece of data. Small as it might be, the the smallest thing you can imagine doesn't matter, but it just gives me so much joy and it gives me so much joy to share that with other people. So my team and to see team members grow and. Discover themselves and sharing that discovery is the thing that excites me the most. And that's why I know that if I lose that, there's no other box that's going to tick this one. So this is the thing that gives me the most joy in my job, in my, in my work life, which is a big part of my life. So if I can't do that, I'll have to do something else. I think.

Sandrine: 58:09

Thank you so much. K. It's been such a pleasure talking to you really

Catarina: 58:13

you, Sandrine. It's been a pleasure. I'm always, always available to talk. Thank you so much.

Sandrine: 58:17

you. Cheers.