70- Prof. Jo Richardson- Helping people feel at home

Professor Jo Richardson is Associate Dean of Research for Nottingham Business School at Nottingham Trent University and Professor of Housing & Social Inclusion. 

Her expertise on homelessness and methodological stance in co-production have created solid and value-based foundations for her leadership style. 

Jo’s career was not planned from the start as an academic career. She started as a housing practitioner working in the public sector, such as a national professional body, a housing association and a local authority. Eventually, Jo entered academia via the professional services route with a role as manager for a research centre. The encouragement of an empowering line manager enabled her to get involved in some teaching and join a part-time PhD.

Her role at the time required her to gain consultancy funding to renew her year-long contracts. This was a strong motivator and excellent training for her to enter an academic role, as she was already devising different projects, accessing funding, and implementing delivery. She collaborated with multiple external stakeholders, so she built a deep understanding of knowledge exchange, getting her to grasp the ethos of the impact agenda early on.

Her research niche developed from her early practitioner experiences and consultancy projects. Her passion and curiosity about the issue of homelessness had been fuelled early during a gap year as a student volunteering in New York for a homeless charity. This experience and later work as a practitioner anchored her interest in applied research, asking real-world questions that matter to society. Her grant capture strategy was one of “mixed economy”, relying on funding from many different sources. This allowed her to build a significant grant portfolio, and she became a Professor in 2014.

Her next professional step meant stepping into more significant leadership shoes. Again, as with her initial line manager support to do a PhD, she was supported at this stage by the encouragement of peers and her head of department. She now sees her role as a university leader as contributing to the success of others – making them feel at home in the academic space – through working closely with early career researchers and embracing actions that support the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion agenda.

Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking:

• Where is your curiosity driving you in your research journey right now?
• If you trusted your “open-hearted curiosity”, where would this take you professionally? 
• What are the gaps in your professional skills and portfolio?

Read the full blog:

Transcript

Sandrine: 0:00

All right, let's get started. Hello, dear listeners, you're on the podcast, Research Lives and Cultures. I'm your host, Sandrine Soub. And I have with me today, Professor Joe Richardson. Welcome on the show.

Jo: 0:27

Good morning.

Sandrine: 0:29

at the moment you work at Nottingham Trent University and you have a very fancy job of being a professor and also an, an associate dean for research. And I'm really interested in hearing about some of the experiences that you've had as you progressed in your career. So I'm really interested to hear, you know, the journey that you went on. Let's get us started. And if you can give like a big picture. picture of your research career so far.

Jo: 0:59

Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. I started in academia at the turn of the millennium. That makes me sound old, but in 2000 is probably when I had my first role, a full time job in academia. And prior to that, I worked in The social housing sector in the UK. So this was with local authorities and housing associations. I'm just sharing that bit of my career because it has definitely informed my research career and my academic career. I would say that my research is really informed through co production methods, through working with the communities that are going to benefit from the research. And so that's been something that's been very helpful for me in developing my, my career because it's helped me work with communities with organizations, and it's helped me build impact right from the very start. So I have certainly found that practitioner background very helpful to me, particularly in understanding knowledge exchange and impact, which is a really. key currency at the moment. I didn't really understand it when I first started in academia, but I, I know now, and I'm very thankful for the path I took. So I would say when I first started, I was a manager of a research center. So I was on a professional a professional contract rather than an academic contract. And I worked for the Centre for Comparative Housing Research at De Molfat University in Leicester. And I was very fortunate to have a line manager who was very empowering, who was a champion for promotion who really saw that there was something that I could bring to housing research. So supported me to undertake my PhD to undertake training in how to do teaching in higher education. So I'm, I'm looking back on that. I feel very fortunate to have had that particular line manager and that particular center to grow into my, my academic self. It was a renewable contract, a one year renewable contract. And I needed to demonstrate that I was bringing in consultancy research income in those first few years. So that again it kept me on my toes at the time, but a very, very useful skill now where there is a strong focus on grant funded research projects. Once I'd completed my PhD, which I did part time, I then went into a sort of full time academic post and did a whole range of teaching, developing courses, undertaking my, my own research. And that really allowed me to have that mixed economy. of a research career, which I was able to demonstrate, you know, a significant grant income portfolio, publications and, and teaching. And that then led me to get my chair in 2014. And following on from that, again, I was encouraged by various people to follow I guess tracks of improvement, both in terms of teaching, but also in research and to look for spaces where I could provide some leadership. The role of Associate Dean Research became apparent at De Montfort University in their Faculty of Business and Law. And I decided to go for it. It felt like quite a big step because it's not something I'd done before. But again, I think the encouragement of my, my peers and my line manager and head of department at the time was really important. And I took a chance on it and, and then became associate dean research in. late 2017 and have carried on with that role. And that's the role I now have at Nottingham Trent University at the business school. I really love it because it gives me the opportunity to work with all researchers, but to really talk with early career researchers. And I'm passionate about encouraging people and particularly with an EDI lens on particularly encouraging people who Perhaps aren't readily seen in senior spaces in, in the higher education sector. One of the things I did at De Montfort University, I ended up having a university wide role leading and co chairing DMU Women, which was the staff network. And that again allowed me a space for, for, for my passion in terms of encouraging women in the sector. So I bring that with me to Nottingham Business School. We just had our first meeting of what I'm calling Women in Business Research Network. So I'm bringing that too. So I think I've learned really in my career to date that you don't need to wait for a formal role. There are other ways in terms of bringing leadership qualities. And that actually it's really incumbent when you do get to a position of leadership that it's important for me that I model some of those behaviors that I saw, you know, for people who opened the door for me, who encouraged me, who championed me. So I really want to make sure that I'm that person now for other people and having this role really enables me to do that.

Sandrine: 6:03

So there is a lot to unpack in what you've described. And in a way, the past that you've had is very unusual in term of starting with a role in professional services. And I think that what you said, having somebody, you know, having a line manager Who was very supportive is pretty incredible, especially in that transition, because I think that there are lots of very talented people who work in professional services and who are not necessarily well supported in progressing in their role. And it's, it's interesting because a lot of people with PhD move into professional services and having, been in a role like that myself, the promotion space is actually very limited. So the role of managers is really key, but I'm really curious. in terms of what made you want to do a PhD? What was the impetus what was the thing that was I want to do that. I want to go beyond what I'm doing now. What did you want that, because doing a PhD part time is very

Jo: 7:06

Yeah, it is. I mean, it comes back to basic curiosity and probably the drive for my whole career. That's the my professional career in the public sector the short period of time that I was in higher education, but as a manager rather than as a pure academic. And I did have some, some teaching and some kind of academic style activities during that time that enabled me to make that move. But going back to the PhD. I had an amazing opportunity in my late teens during my gap year to volunteer for a homelessness charity. And this was in 1991 in New York, and it was, An incredible experience, really. It really opened my eyes to this notion of home and what it means and what it means not to have one. I'd come from a very stable family background. I'd never known what it felt like to have precarious housing or not to have a home. And so right from that moment, I knew that I wanted to work in that area. So that's why I then went and did a public administration degree, why I went into the public sector. It's that curiosity still about the meaning of home and how we can resolve and prevent homelessness that drove me to think about undertaking a PhD. So it was purely a curiosity driven project. Yes. So that's what led me to want to do it. And I realized as well that it was important in terms of career development, you know, that there would be no way I could have an academic career without a PhD, obviously. and it was like being a kid in a sweet shop at that point, there was no barrier to staff development. If you were qualified if you were able to make the time, if you had an interesting question and you could put together a good supervision team, there was nothing to stop you undertaking a PhD. And yeah, it took all my powers of project and time management to do it part time. But it was there, it was available, and I'm a bit of a one for if there's an opportunity and it fits with your life aims and ambitions, then it would be silly not to take it up. But yeah, it was, it was really purely curiosity driven. my first passion has really been about housing and trying to resolve homelessness. The academic career was almost accidental. If you like, I fell into academia, I purposefully went into housing, but fell into academia but have found it's a place that suits me where I can, I can carry on that kind of curiosity driven approach to life and really a place where I can help support other people as well.

Sandrine: 9:34

So what is interesting in your past what you've described earlier of, Then having opportunities to apply for consultancy work and so on, often that's the challenge for a lot of early career academics is okay, where is the funding going to come from? So how did the pressure to access funding or to demonstrate that you have the capability of accessing research funding so that people consider you for lectureship and so on? All of that shapes. The type of work that you can do. So how did the mixture of, okay, this is the funding that's available. That's what I can get. And these are the research question that I really want to ask. How did you merge this to be able to have a research niche that was, this is really the stuff that really drives me and I'm passionate about, but I can actually get funding to do that work. How did you navigate

Jo: 10:28

I mean, first off it was out of necessity. So I worked with a team of people who really combined academic research, consultancy research and high quality professional teaching. And those three things were in balance. So neither one was more important than the other, but they all helped each other to co exist. And I needed to demonstrate that I was bringing that funding in to get my one yearly contract renewed. So necessity was a really key driver. But I've always undertaken applied research. I have never come from a position of pure theoretical academic research. And I could see the challenges if you are in that area of pure kind of theoretical research. But mine had always been applied. It had always come from thinking about what are the real world questions? What does, you industry, in this case, the public sector need? What do citizens who are experiencing homelessness need? What's the question? And that's, I've always come from the question. So again, it's this kind of curiosity driven thing. I've never thought there's this funding or there's this funder. I wonder how I could respond to that. There's an element of thinking about how can I make sure that this real world question fits with that funder? So there absolutely has to be a fit, but to me, It's always come from the question first and then looking at the funding landscape as to how, how that can help support the funding question. But it's, it's really increasingly competitive accessing particularly UKRI grant funding. And I actually think a mixed economy. funding approach is really important. So yes, absolutely. It's important to go for UKRI and European funding. But there's also opportunity out there in terms of public sector funding. Charity funding, you know, projects consultancy research projects where you can undertake something, but it also supports you developing an argument, which then might be turned into an academic journal article and the rest of it. So having that mixed economy keeps it real, keeps it applied, keeps it. impactful, creates those knowledge exchange pathways. But it, it is more challenging in, in some disciplines. You know, if you're looking at doctrinal law, for example, that's going to be more challenging in terms of applied research grant funding applicability really.

Sandrine: 12:56

Having discussed with a lot of early career academics, they are often the perception that, if you get funding from some sources, it will be better perceived by, your promotion panel than another. and I think that so many of these things are very subjective and, from one institution to another, from one, Promotion panel to another. early career academics really twist themselves in Nazi in worries about whether they should do this, they should do that, and how it's going to be perceived. So in your case, Did you have an easiness of not worrying about the promotion criteria and then just do whatever felt, okay, that's what I want to do.

Jo: 13:35

I really did what I felt I wanted to do. So I just, I followed that. line of curiosity. So in terms of the my housing and homelessness research, I've had questions around marginalized groups who have precarious housing or no housing. So for example, I've done quite a lot of work around the Gypsy and Traveller communities in the UK and, and followed that line of inquiry and found funding that helped support that research. In terms of promotion, I don't think I've ever really actively thought about it. I mean, I've been aware of it and I've gone for opportunities, but I think what I've done is brought my evidence To that opportunity rather than let the promotion drive what it is that I'm doing. So I've, I've had it in the back of my mind rather than the front of my mind, I'd say. So I've been aware when I've wanted to go for something, I've always looked at that job description and done a bit of a gap analysis and thought, well, what is it I haven't got? And then thought, what do I need to do then to fill that? But I've not then gone for the first thing that helps meet that. that particular gap. I've always gone for things that I, I would enjoy doing. So I've never done something for the sake of promotion, but I have been aware and been reasonably strategic in terms of where I need to upskill myself or provide some evidence. But I would only ever do something that aligns with what I'm interested in or what makes me happy or puts me in a space where I'm going to meet people that I can help. Provide support or that are going to help nourish my life in some way because I enjoy their company or because they've got interests that align with mine. So, yeah, but it is, it really is a challenging environment, I think, in terms of meeting criteria particularly where there is this necessity for bringing in grant funding and the increased competitive nature of that, which is why I think taking it. Sort of broader approach to it, remaining curiosity driven and then looking beyond. UKRI funding that is really important to get that but if there are steps to, to proving yourself as a principal investigator, as a project lead, and it may be that there are spaces in and around, you know, through consultancy research, through getting funding in other ways that you can then demonstrate your merit as a project leader that then make you more attractive then for putting in for grant funding with UKRI.

Sandrine: 16:23

of the challenge for every single academics, across the world is this balance of responsibilities across teaching research admin stuff. I come across so many academics who are really torn because many of them are very value driven and really want to support their students, are really committed to to do a good job with their teaching. Even though, there is a lot of, academic bashing where we say, Oh, they don't care about the teaching. They just care about the research. Well, you know, I don't come across many people who are like that. I'm sure there are some, but, a lot of mid career academics. being pulled in so many direction means that very often, there are people who really then struggle to having grants there is an unsustainability in their life where really they put their, well being, in jeopardy. So in your case, how are you creating a sense of balance across these different commitments?

Jo: 17:19

Yeah, I am very, very much a work in progress on this. I am not a finished article when it comes to balance. There are a number of, a number of people who know me who would kind of roll their eyes at the idea of me having sorted out this, this balance. There are things that happen in life that. that put things into perspective. I've, I've had a couple of moments over the last couple of years that have helped me gain perspective through that. So that can help sometimes. I think having a really strong sense of purpose. So knowing clearly what what fits and what doesn't can help one to say no quite easily because you know it's, it's not in your ethos or it's not in your discipline or it's not going to help others or it's not going to help you. And so I think I've got a very keen sense. of where I fit and what fits with me. So I, where stuff doesn't fit, it's easy to say no. But as you say, there are so many interesting things, and I was just emailing a colleague this morning because I saw a call for, for papers for, for something. And I just said, I'm kind of shaking my head at myself that I'm even doing, suggesting that we do this, but it's interesting. And But that can take its toll, that cumulative effect of taking on lots and lots of interesting things. I'm not very good at practicing things like yoga and meditation. It's kind of on my to do list, which is a ridiculous way of thinking about it. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not brilliant at the balance but I'm very fortunate I've got a very patient and loving family. I do take time out to to try and, and, and get some level of fitness and, and fresh air, which I think is important. And where I need to make space for things I do. I was president of my professional body a couple of years ago, the Chartered Institute of Housing, and I was able to save up some annual leave across two years actually, and put it together. And I, I walked the Southwest Coast Path, which is ridiculous. It's 630 miles, you know, and it's I did like a 46 day continuous walk along this path.

Sandrine: 19:37

That's amazing.

Jo: 19:38

And that was really good, actually, as a moment in time. I mean, I was going into my 50th year on planet Earth, and it felt like a moment. And I was able to raise, you know, really reasonable sum of money for an end youth homelessness charity in doing it. But for things that are really, really important, it's funny how you can create space and how you can say no really quite quickly and organize things because it's so important. So, I think there's that. It's, it's, yeah, it goes back to that purpose and prioritization of things. I try really hard not to work at the weekends, but that doesn't always work out. I've reframed how I think about academic writing for my own journal articles. And I, I do think about that as more of a hobby because it allows me then to work some Sometimes on a weekend day or in my annual leave without me feeling like I'm working in my holiday. I genuinely enjoy it. I notice when I measure my stress, I've got a watch that measures my stress and I noticed that my stress levels really reduce when I'm concentrating on a single thing and doing some writing. So it genuinely is something that nourishes me. But I do, if I'm, if I'm taking annual leave and I took a couple of weeks off over Easter, I switch off the. email. I don't have it on my phone. I've really try and reset. So that can help a bit with balance, but I am super aware of this issue. I think we, we need to be mindful and of particularly of the impact I think on women in academia and early career research for women in academia who are juggling a whole lot of different things going on in life and trying to get promoted against a really stringent set of criteria. So it's something I want to do in our Women in Business Research Network is to, is to think about this and to try and encourage and support colleagues in, in balancing everything that's going on in their lives.

Sandrine: 21:34

I suppose it's particularly important because many women will leave the research profession because they see women ahead of themselves and they say, I don't want that life. I don't want to give up as much. it's a heavy burden, as a senior leader, because, you become a role model, whether you want it or not. And, the experience that you have is not necessarily the experience that other women want to have. it's almost like, one of these wicked questions to ask, but what do you see really is your role now in the way that you stand as a senior woman so that more women want to push through and to get this senior position, in academia,

Jo: 22:16

you're right. It's a really difficult question because it hits on so many different things. I'm very aware of my role as associate dean research, as a professor in our business school. And I, I guess I see my role, not necessarily as. a management role, but a sort of championing role and really trying to support early career researchers through from our PhD students postdocs lecturers, senior lecturers, and across a range of pathways as well. So Nottingham Trent, we have scholarship practice and research pathways. And we've got. people who are getting into research from, from these different pathways. So it's important to support that, but also as a member of the executive team in the school to support and recognize excellent scholarship where it exists and encourage colleagues to go for promotion on that pathway. So I think you were saying earlier that some people that they are excellent at teaching, excellent at nurturing the next generation. Brilliant at designing professional qualifications and linking with industry and we must recognize and we certainly do at the university I'm at at the moment follow that pathway through so that people can be promoted. in the area that they excel at, rather than thinking that it has to be in a space that is in that research environment. And so I, I try and make sure that I, I carry on doing some teaching. I'm pretty new to NTU, so I've just had one opportunity so far of talking with students. I'm following a pathway with the HEA with the Higher Education Academy, because I think it's important in a research leadership role to try and improve myself all of the time in terms of my standing as a a teacher. So I think there are a number of ways that I can try and Demonstrate what's needed in terms of an academic career by, by doing, lead by doing. That sounds like a bit of a cliche. And I'm aware then that if I model bad habits as such. So if I do answer emails in my holiday, if I am. seem to be overly stressed and overly busy that that then makes it look like it's a pretty unappealing job. I mean, I've seen other people say, Oh my goodness, this is what I have to do to maintain my position. And I'm thinking there's no way I'm doing that. So I, I am aware of the, the need for strong role modeling it, like you say It's not something you necessarily seek out but it's incumbent as part of the role you know, particularly as associate dean research to be able to encourage younger and earlier career researchers. And people will come to research from all sorts of different ways. So I think it's sometimes quite helpful to have come from practice, to have had a non traditional route. Into and through academia is is sometimes quite helpful. And I've been fortunate to work particularly in modern universities where there is I think more of an openness to recognizing expertise where it exists rather than assuming it has to come along a particular traditional pathway.

Sandrine: 25:35

one of the thing I'll be interesting in exploring also is the conception that you have around leadership, because even, new, research fellows will say, well, I'm not really a research leader yet. And so in a way, what does it mean to do leadership or to be a leader?

Jo: 25:52

yeah, again, that's a huge question. I. Hope and I certainly think that what I do is servant leadership. So I like to think that there's this thing called research, which is basically about finding out how we can make the world better through a range of ways. So it's, there's this interesting question as a problem and we want to solve it. And there are so many people who, who want to, to conduct research that can help make the world a better place. So. I think being a leader in that space is about a lot of listening. So colleagues will come and say, I'm interested to follow up on this particular question, or I'd like to gain funding from this particular funder to help me in this particular question. So a lot of it's about listening. signposting, but also holding space and helping other people to hold space to do that. I think it's quite easy to get overwhelmed with the different pathways open to us in the higher education sector. It's very easy to get overwhelmed as someone who's early on in their career with a number of deadlines. We're all busy being busy but there's a lot of work around the teaching space, you know, preparing lectures, large lectures, marking a lot of the, the wellbeing stuff that sits around the teaching space as well now. So I do see colleagues who are. really busy. And it's, I guess my role is about listening to their worries around that trying to help support in terms of sometimes some very, very practical stuff. So I arrange writing retreats and I've started to do that in my new job in, in at Nottingham Trent as well. Just had our first one the other week. So yeah, bringing people into a space, providing that community, allowing people to work together, and I guess just yeah, holding that space, signposting it. Yeah, so there's a lot of listening and a lot of reading, because I, I get to read draft proposals for grant funding. And I take that very seriously and make constructive comments and, you know, ask people to send further drafts and, and see myself as a champion in that space. So, yeah, that's really the kind of leader I like to, to think I am and hope that I am.

Sandrine: 28:18

when you reflect on your own transition, you know, the past that you followed is is not very common. You know, I mean, I'm sure it is, but I've not come across many people who've had that trajectory. What do you feel does have been really the hurdles that you've had for your progression? And how did you, navigate these,

Jo: 28:38

Yeah, I think actually some of the hurdles It's like a two sides of a coin. So some of the things that have helped me, there's been a side to it that's also been a hindrance. So I think sometimes academics might look at the way that I have come into and progressed through academia as very different. So there sometimes be a snobbishness. Um, And I say sometimes, yeah, there can be a snobbishness about the type of research that one does. I think now applied research has really come into its own because it is a pathway to knowledge exchange and impact. But in some spaces the sort of research that I've undertaken working with people, undertaking consultancy research projects it hasn't always been seen by everybody as being the type of research that, that should be done. So that can be a challenge. Sometimes I've, I've felt like I've needed to explain it. I've had to explain this a little bit more as to, to why it's important and why it's helped contribute to the field. So. Yeah. And I think any woman who has been in a workplace over the last 20 to 30 years can talk about, you know, various challenges that women face in terms of recognition, in terms of balancing domestic labor at home with labor in the workplace trying to catch up to. periods of leave whether that's to look after children or parents or whatever. So I think there are a number of, of challenges that, that all women go through and, and certainly I'm not immune to that either. But I have been fortunate to have been able to make the most of opportunities like supportive colleagues you know, and, and, and yeah,

Sandrine: 30:33

When you think about the role that you now have, you know, in sort of a much more senior role and,, sitting on university committees and so on, the dynamics in term of decision making in these committees and, the transparency. In terms of, letting staff know that that's what we're doing often, could be better for lots of institutions. So what is your own experience now in being in these spaces where, decisions need to be made that are not necessarily popular and where, the openness that people ought to have is again, not necessarily the best.

Jo: 31:10

Again, that's an interesting question. You get to a certain point where Yeah, you may not agree with all decisions that are made in committee, but as part of a leadership tier, you appreciate that you are collectively responsible for decisions that are made in committees. So, I suppose what I try and do is communicate. Ideas and decisions as openly as possible try and explain rationale for why decisions are made. I think people are increasingly aware of the context in which we are as a sector. And I think appraising people and sharing information on that is always very helpful. But yeah, I guess I try and approach things with, you empathy with a listening ear. I'm aware that a leadership position is not only about sharing information with colleagues who are in the similar position or in earlier career positions, but also in sharing ideas. into those committees and up to more senior colleagues. So it's a multi way process of communication. And I try and keep that in mind as well, but yeah, I think taking an emotionally intelligent approach again, a real listening ear and an empathetic approach to sharing information across the board is probably the way that I go about it.

Sandrine: 32:34

And I guess from the type of work that you have done and, the co production approach, this is a skill set that you bring to these new spaces that maybe not, not everybody has.

Jo: 32:43

yeah, I guess communication styles are different. I definitely will not be getting it right all of the time. And you know, all I can do is try and learn from that, but yeah, I think probably just stopping to take a beat and put yourself in another person's shoes is, is not a bad way of thinking about. making decisions, sharing decisions, inviting as many people as you can into that debate so that decisions are as reflective of a wider population as you can. I think also pointing out you know, the, the need for that reflective base for making decisions. So you know, it's important that the people who are in those spaces reflect the wider population. And yeah, I'm, I'm aware of the need for that and kind of, you know, try and talk about that in any spaces that I'm invited into.

Sandrine: 33:38

the research culture agenda right now is very much at the forefront of some of the work that universities are doing. And obviously a lot of the founders have also provided funding to universities. What is the work that you are doing right now in that space for your institution in terms of Changing the practices and experimenting with different initiatives.

Jo: 34:00

Yeah, I think a lot of this is in the everyday. So we could write lots of strategies about culture and and, that's important to have a strategic approach to it, of course, but I think the way people feel culture is in everyday practices. So by bringing communities of people together, for example, the Women in Business Research Network that just established by putting on writing retreats that really physically demonstrate that space and put people in a room together that can share ideas and challenges and problems and opportunities. It's really important. We put on a number of events in, in the business school the last couple of. Terms that I've been here colleagues have been brilliant at doing that. I've come into a space where this is happening already, you know, where there's a lot of attention to research culture and to supporting colleagues and visibly and physically. So, so support in terms of writing and recognizing quality places to publish your, your outputs in terms of recognizing knowledge exchange and pathways to impact. There've been a number of workshops and sessions. I, I think it's those perhaps more informal spaces where you can help provide that environment. That's the The glue of of, of our business school, you know, where people come along and they can genuinely, you know, have a slice of cake and have a laugh together and and, and provide that more informal support. So, yeah, again, it comes back to that, that holding space, but in a very physical, Way so that you can demonstrate it. I think in terms of opportunities to apply for funding to support particular activities I'm undertaking a, an EDI analysis of what we've, what we've, we've done, you know, to make sure that those opportunities are. are manifesting across a range of different characteristics. So we've not got support. That's just going in one direction, but that we are recognizing the need to support people earlier on in their career across a range of protected characteristics too. So with. We're putting stuff on, we're analyzing it, we're looking to see if there are any gaps that we need to do anything particularly different for the future. And we're open to supporting colleagues who are bringing in their own ideas and their own networks, because I think it's that bringing people together in a very physically apparent way that's the thing that's going to help change culture.

Sandrine: 36:31

Do you think that there is an area, the research culture agenda that people are scared of addressing? The elephant in the room that people feel is just, you know, we are not ready to go there yet.

Jo: 36:42

I haven't seen that. That's not to say that that's not apparent in, in the sector. I think it, it is. I've been fortunate to work, as I say, in, in modern universities that I think are really open to that and perhaps come from, well, they do, they come from a different legacy. So think perhaps are more open to trying things to, you know, literally opening things up, what's under the hood how can we make this the best it can be? you know, possibly more fleet of foot in being able to do that. So I've been fortunate to work in that space in the sector, I suppose. So I haven't come across perhaps more traditional um, historical approaches to, to culture. So, yes, I, I haven't seen that reluctance to, to try and make the best of things, to change things. that's not to say that I'm, I'm, I'm not aware that it does happen in other spaces in the sector.

Sandrine: 37:36

Obviously because I work as a coach, I'm always reluctant to give advice to people. But when you have lots of researchers who may come to you to know, to review their, you know, their funding application and you, Probably look at lots of CVs of, early career academics and so on. Is it something that you often notice that people are not doing as well as they could or something that's really missing in them being in a really good position to be able to take the next step?

Jo: 38:04

Yeah, I, there aren't any kind of key themes, you know, across the, the piece that I can see that are sort of a trend in, in, in gaps in, in CVs. I can see how pressure of. deadlines of maybe a quantity of teaching in a particular workload is impacting on someone's availability to write and to get published. And I think the time frame, the publication time frame doesn't always match, say, a promotions um, time frame or indeed our ref time frame. And I think these things exist. So I try and say to colleagues Don't think about REF too much. REF is an assessment of a university's quality of its research, its environment, its outputs, its impact. And that's for the university to, to submit and to help organize. But it's very difficult because it exists and it's talked about so much and people are aware of the importance of it. Similarly, promotions criteria exist, but we don't want them to Drive behavior. What we want is these assessments of quality, whether at an institutional level or an individual level. We want those to assess what's there rather than to, to make particular types of activity happen. So I think it's very difficult for me to talk about today because You know, I'm reasonably long in the tooth. I'm in my early fifties now, and I was in higher education at a different time where the pressures were different. They weren't necessarily less, but they were, they were different. And I, I, I don't. Yeah, I don't think I'm able in a way to put myself in the shoes of an academic, an early career academic today. I couldn't look someone in the face and say, well, this is, this is what I did. Try that because it's such a different context. I, yeah, I, I don't think there are gaps as such. I think it's more related back to that question about culture. It's, more about, as a society even, to think about what's research for, why are we doing it, what's important, how can we support colleagues to do the best. The best possible quality research. How can we apply that to improve society, improve the world? Otherwise you can generate quite some heat and noise around a range of activities that's not actually helping individuals, institutions, or society. It's creating almost an industry around that. And I, I don't think that helps anybody.

Sandrine: 40:51

One of the things that I really take away from what you're saying is that if you're thinking about, how do we talk to early career researchers in terms of, their past, I think, you know, the thing that you said really early on, you know, basically curiosity values, follow your guts in terms of, how you want to contribute instead of You know, it's not about being naive about the environment, it's like you need to have the inner drive to just follow, where you really want to contribute instead of worrying so much about all the, what is measured because what is measured will carry on to evolving and you don't know what will be considered of value tomorrow. It could change. It

Jo: 41:32

have articulated what I meant in a much more succinct way than I've been able to say it, but it is absolutely that open hearted curiosity. What is it that you really want to make a difference in? And yeah, I, I don't know whether it's luck or judgment or maybe a mixture of the both. I've been able to navigate a space that I've been able to follow my heart in that way and I guess having this, almost this strap line to my professional life of trying to make people feel at home. So whether that's related to my housing and homelessness research the professional education that I've been involved in designing and delivering, or whether that's helping people feel at home at work. So bringing their authentic selves to work that really drives me. So that's helped me in understanding how my role as associate dean research is not actually that different to being a housing lecturer or a housing researcher, because it all falls back to this trying to help people feel at home.

Sandrine: 42:35

Yeah, I love that expression. It's a, it's a really nice way of putting it. Is there a question I haven't asked you and, and you feel, I wish she had

Jo: 42:42

I can't think of anything Sandrine. I think it's been a really interesting conversation. I think because I've been thinking out loud. I was really pleased that you were able to articulate probably the nub of what I've been trying to say in such a way, but it is, and it sounds naive and it sounds idealistic, but if you can follow your heart, if you can find uh, really deep question that drives your curiosity and you can follow that through and find things almost. So that's almost like the magnet and then it attracts things to that question, whether that's grant funding, whether that's a project, whether that's a particular module or a course, opportunities kind of will align to that. And I think if you can stick to that, not rigidly, but have that as your core mission in life, it does then help. help put things in perspective. So going back to that perspective, it helps, helps you remember that. REF is a seven yearly assessment of the institution you're working in at the time. It helps you perhaps translate promotions criteria into a way that you can articulate in a very original way to really demonstrate your contribution. We don't want cookie cutter. academics, that's not going to change the world. So yeah, there's a bit about breaking the mold and creating your own template and all sorts of cliches I could come out with, but it is, it goes back to that. Find your core mission and follow that and make the world just shift a little bit around you rather than respond to an increasingly complex set of criteria.

Sandrine: 44:20

That's a really nice way of putting it. mY final question, Joe, is about joy. If you were going to boil down your joy in the research environment, what would you say is joy about

Jo: 44:33

Wow. it's about seeing that. difference that your research can make. So and not necessarily just your research, but the activities that you do. So whether it's even just putting on sandwiches for a women in business research network and getting together a conversation and hearing that Buzz of lots of different voices in the room that can uplift you. Or whether it's about hearing from an organization that you've worked with or a community group about the difference that a research project has made collectively. That brings joy in terms of work. but I would say, you know, in the, in the balance, you know there are all sorts of things that bring me joy obviously my family. But. Getting outside, getting in the fresh air, connecting with nature, these sorts of things. So not being a slave to the uh, the laptop or the email. Remembering that email is a channel of communication rather than a job of itself. these things detract from, from our joy, I think, but yeah, I think it goes back a bit as well to that mission. you can find yourself in real flow if you're doing something that, you know, is purposeful and aligns with what you want to achieve. So that also brings joy.

Sandrine: 45:43

Thank you so, so much, Joe, for giving us your time and sharing your perspective. This is much. appreciated.

Jo: 45:49

Thank you. very much. It was nice to meet you. Thank you.