73- Dr Phil Elks- Joining a thriving community

Dr Phil Elks is a Senior Research Fellow in the School of Medicine and Population Health at The University of Sheffield. His research career has been dedicated to using Zebrafish as a model to study human diseases. Being part of a vibrant community using this animal model has shaped his career.

Listening to our conversation will prompt your thinking:

• How spotting small funding opportunities is part of shifting towards research independence
• What informal opportunities may you consider to construct your leadership development
• What could be your best recruitment strategy for building your team

Read the full blog post here:
tesselledevelopment.com/research-lives-and-cultures/phil-elks

Transcript

Sandrine Soubes: 0:00

Okay. Let's get started.

Sandrine: 0:13

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.

Sandrine Soubes: 0:15

Dear listeners, I am Sandra, so your host on the podcast Research Lives and Cultures, and today I am with me, Dr. Phil ELs, who is from the University of Sheffield, and Phil, your based in the Department of Infection, immunity and Cardiovascular Disease. A very long name for department.

Phil: 0:34

A very long name, but. Yes, that's correct.

Sandrine: 0:36

Okay, and you are based in the, in the faculty of medicine within your institution.

Phil: 0:41

Yep.

Sandrine: 0:42

So Phil, can you get us started and, and give us a little flavor of your career so far.

Phil: 0:48

Yes. So I'm currently a senior research fellow so Henry Dale Fellow which is funded by the Royal Society and the Welcome Trust. And I started my research career in Sheffield. As a PhD student back in 2004, and this was looking at zebrafish biology, which is something I do currently. And Amelia, I got interested in, in using zebrafish as a model to study human disease right at the start of of my PhD. So during my undergraduate research, I'd actually done a biochemistry degree at the University of Warwick. But slightly bizarrely, a lot of that course was dedicated to developmental biology despite being a biochemistry course. And so I got really interested in animal models then. And one thing they didn't have at Warwick which they did have at Sheffield, was a thriving zebrafish community in zebrafish in 2004, which really a model that was growing in terms of popularity. And so I, I came to the University of Sheffield to really look at the zebrafish model. And so I joined the, the research lab of Henry Rowell and professor Peter Crouch. And this was a great mix between the kind of basic biology of developmental biology that Henry Round did and the more clinically based medical. Studies that Peter Crouch did. And so really from the start of my PhD, I tried to use a developmental model, which is what zebra fish is to understand medically relevant questions.

Sandrine: 2:19

For nearly enough. I think that her past must have crossed when I was a post-doc in the same department. I was working with Maia Plak

Phil: 2:26

I remember when you were around as a postdoc. Yes.

Sandrine: 2:28

Okay. That's, that feels like a century. A century ago. It is. Is very strange.

Phil: 2:34

I don't like to think about it too much, but yes, it was quite a long time ago. So I, I did my PhD here and then at the end of my PhD I. I decided, decided to stay here for a postdoc, and I had a number of options at that time, but um, so I stayed to do a postoc, but this is the point in my career when I, I changed my research interest. So I had been doing bone developmental biology. Looking a bit at bone cancer as well in my PhD and I switched topic completely to look at inflammation and it's really the immune system that I've, that I've stayed in for the rest of my career up till now. So that was kind of the big switch in my career, if you like. The first post stage and I stayed to do a postoc with professor Steve Renshaw here in Sheffield, also in in birth court which is where my lab is currently based. And so that was a three year postdoc. And at the end of that period, I started my independent fellowship career which has led me up until now. So I moved countries. I moved to Netherlands to be an independent postdoc in the lab of professor Annemarie Meyer at the University of Liden in the Netherlands. And that's where I, I, I looked at infection biology which is what I've continued to, to look at now. So I look at the host immune system in, in the ze fish to try to understand how our immune system copes with the challenge of of bacterial and fungal infections. So I returned back to the UK in 2013 as a vice chancellor fellow, which was a scheme that was run by the University of Sheffield. To, to both keep people in Sheffield and, but to attract people from outside. So I came in from outside. That was an internal fellowship for three years. But within the three year period, at the end of the second year, I, I got money from the welcome Trust of All Society and my first iteration of the Sir Henry Dowell Fellowship which was a five year fellowship, which then got extended for further three years. And I'm coming to the end of that round.

Sandrine: 4:34

So there's a lot of really a great deal to unpack in what you said. But one of the first thing I'm will be interested in exploring with you is this idea of research niche. Because you said that between your first postdoc and your fellowship, you sort of change. And that's the point of when people are wondering, okay, how do I. Take that pass from having had all these experiences within a system. With, my PhD supervisor and my postdoc, my pi, and then suddenly having to decide, okay, this area is going to be mine, and being able to make the transition. Because you have to be credible from the founder's, point of view, how do you convince them that you can actually do the work and that you are building that space that's going to be yours?

Phil: 5:19

Yeah, I think this is a ma a major challenge. I think I was fairly lucky and I got a lot of support in that from my PIs, and I think that's, that's really important to have that support from your, your PIs. But I guess the, the, the. The stroke of luck I had really was that my initial post-doctoral position was actually a kind of a, a slightly separate topic from what the rest of the lab did. And it was actually written for a person who then subsequently left. And so I, I ended up applying for, for the post to know this, this this project had been written for someone else. So actually I came into a project that was slightly separate in the lab already. And at the end of that project it had gone well. You know, the, the first postdoc of three years went well and I was able to, to. To think about this near the end and, and think about where I could take it and what opportunities there were for funding. And really, I was probably only eligible for funding to, to go abroad which is why I went for a uni uh, European fellowship at the time. So that allowed me to pick a topic in which to take what I'd learned and diverge away from my postdoc lab. So I en enjoyed my postdoc. I looked at inflammatory diseases. The zebra fish and I looked at a specific genetic pathway that we found modulated the, the inflammatory response. Now the bad thing for me in terms of the postdoc was that it modulated the response in a bad way. So clinically it was a bad outcome if you modulated the response in this way. However, I realized that for infection biology, actually this could be a very good outcome. So this pathway activated the immune system, which is a bad thing for chronic inflammation, which is what my postdoc was studying, but had real potential against infections. So I was able to think about. You know, areas in New York where I wanted to go, but also pick out specific labs where I could take this kind of the genetic models I'd, I'd develop to look at this pathway in a different system in the infection system. And that allowed me to, looking at this particular pathway in, in the lab that I took this to was something that they weren't doing also. So it was, it was always somp something slightly separate away from, from what the main lab was doing, which allowed me to build my niche through a support, through really good support from the PIs at the time.

Sandrine: 7:44

and that's something that I often discuss in a coaching session with. Postdoc is, the kind of conversation that they need to have with their current pi, but also when they're exploring a host, because both are really important and, and finding the right host is critical. A lot of people really struggle with, who do I reach out and, how do I approach? Especially when you're still in the process of thinking through your ideas where, you may have, kind of an idea, but it's not really a full fledged proposal. And often people ask me, okay, when do I reach out? My default response is always say, well just start conversation. Don't wait too late. Don't wait to have done a rabbit hole and not have developed a project that, not achievable. Start conversation. Don't be scared of these kind of alpha baked ideas that you may have. But what was your approach when you went about finding the right host for yourself? Huh?

Phil: 8:37

Yeah, I, I think you're, everything you said there is absolutely correct. I think it's, it's difficult to bite the bullet and, and really start these conversations, but I'm speaking from a slightly awkward situation here because I, I, it's something that has almost occurred as a natural process for me in a way, and that I've always been slightly separate and I've also not had a postdoc of my own. Currently. So I, I struggle a little bit given advice on this topic because I think, my opinion is that if you have a pi you know, and you're a postdoc, your PI will be aware that you will need to develop your career. And it's absolutely essential, an essential part of being a PI to a postdoc. It's understanding that, and, you know, I, I think. I've been, I've been lucky to have such supportive PIs in the past, and I'd hope that when I get a postdoc I'd be equally as supportive. I guess it would, in, in my experience and my choice of where to go it was heavily based on word of mouth. Actually, so my PI had an idea at the time about, about a lab that would, that would be good to, to scope out. And it was also being able to meet this person at a conference. I think that's really important. So I was able to, to go to, to a couple of conferences at the end of my, my post-op period, whereas I were able to scope out ideas with potential labs to go to and, and, You know, strike up the right conversation at the right time. And I think that's, that's critical as well. Cuz it get, you know, I didn't know this person before I'd met them at the conference, didn't know what the, you know, whether they would be interested in taking me on as a, as a postdoc you know, in an independent fellowship or not. And they were very supportive as well. So I think meeting them in person was a, was a big thing.

Sandrine: 10:22

Yeah, no, that sounds always important because it's about building trust kind of slowly through the conversations

Phil: 10:28

I think, you know, at the time it wasn't like you. Skyped people that much, but now I think, I think, times have changed and now, you know, having a face-to-face meeting online, if you like, is, is almost as good as, as meeting people at conferences. So for sure having a conversation rather than just an email chain is, is quite important I think.

Sandrine: 10:48

And then sort of picking up again on your career trajectory you made the decision to apply for a fellowship to come back. And I was wondering whether this was just timing that this fellowship came and you came back to Sheffield, or was it by choice? Because obviously Sheffield was a big center for developmental genetics. A lot of post-doc worry about in term of still being considered a postdoc. And you were maybe not in the same department in the same location, but if you go back to the same site, The perception that some of the more senior academic, the way they see you is like, well, you're actually an independent fellow, but you are still a postdoc in the eyes. And I know a lot of post-doc or a lot of fellow who have found that very, very challenging. Yeah.

Phil: 11:33

So I think um, there were a few things. the postoc in, in the Netherlands was, was short and so it was one year. And the idea of it, which you were meant to go back. To your individual institution. And actually it was, it was run out of Sheffield, if you like. So it was, it was a, a traveling fellowship, so it wasn't actually held by the University of Leiden. It was held by, it was partially run in, in collaboration with the University of Sheffield. So that meant that I, it was expected that I was going to return. However, there was no opportun, there was, there was no job on the end of that. So it was very much, there was kind of an expectation by the funder that you might return, but there was nothing, there was no guarantee from the university that that would be anything. So I absolutely took it that. There was no job when I came back. That's what I was, that was my expectation. And that, that, that was reality. There was no, there was no funded position for me to come back, but it was almo always my intention to try to come back. so I ended up being in Holland for 18 months. So I got extended by six months. And this allowed me to, to have a bit of time. I was My careful choice of, of lab paid off the project was a success and I was able to publish reasonably well, reasonably quickly. And I think that was really important because it allowed me to apply for fellowships to come back. And I think in that 18 months period, I applied for eight fellowships

Sandrine: 13:06

Okay. Quite a lot. Wow.

Phil: 13:08

try to come back, and they were split. So I hedged my bets, so I. Had four or five to come back to Sheffield and another couple at least to, to go to a different lab somewhere else. So I, I really had to hedge my bets a little bit because Sheffield could not, could not a hundred percent offer a new position, but I was very fortunate that this this vice Chancellor Fellowship position arose. It arose at the right time for me, and I think it was a good stage in my career. To apply for it. And they ran two rounds of it. So I was lucky with the timing. So had that not been there, I dunno whether there would've been an opportunity. So the other, I think in the end, out of the eight fellowships that I applied for, I was offered two and that the other one was a very short, very short position. So I applied for a lot to come back.

Sandrine: 14:07

yeah, but I mean, it's, it's about, you know, creating the chances to actually get something.

Phil: 14:11

Absolutely. And, you know, I think, I think spotting the chances is, is really important. You know, this the, the one that took me to Holland was probably the most important fellowship of my career, really. Because it allowed me to, to take what I'd done as a postdoc and really develop it into my, my own area. And I, I think that, you know, That at the time was quite from quite a small organization. It wasn't the easiest fellowship to find actually. It's now linked to Marcuri and, and European funding. So it's, it's a bit easier to find. But it wasn't a big charity at all. That funded me. So that looking around is really important.

Sandrine: 14:50

Mm-hmm. And how did you go about, kind of building all this application? Because people may ask, can I use the same thing? Was it basically the same sort of range of ideas that you were trying to. Basically right in a different way based on where the front or where they're very different. Uh,

Phil: 15:08

there were two main topics that I was going for. There was what I'm doing now, which is really a continuation. From my original fellowship in a way. And I was taking it into another area of expertise to, to, to, to look at, you know, other potential avenues of funding and to match, you know, you've gotta match your, your partner institution and the other institution I, I was looking at, didn't, didn't do the type of research that I was interested in, so, so I had to, to match it to that. So, I th I think um, Yeah, you have to, you have to think about how to, how to, to do this. I think there's a, there's a bit of a misconception that you can't apply to two funders for the same thing. You absolutely can, but you have to state it Often in the application, there's somewhere where it says, are you applying with a similar project elsewhere? And you, you say that and you tell them where, when that's going. I think the difference is, the difficulty is, You can only accept one. You can't be funded to do the same thing twice. And that, that would be wrong if, if you did that. It's not the way science should be run. So you, you know, I, I think with a fellow, when you look for fellowships, you only need one. And so applying for fellowships is, I think, slightly different for applying to, to grants in that way that you, you can go for a number of different fellowships with the same. Project, but you can only in the end accept one.

Sandrine: 16:33

One of the thing I'll be interested in you sharing is during that, Period where you have a short fellowship and you don't know whether you have a job to come back to when you are applying to all this fellowship, just doing the lab work to actually get the fellowship to be, successful in term of what comes out. And writing all of this application and being away from, your community, your friends and so on. It, it takes a lot. How did you kind of. Keep it together. Keep your wellbeing, your resilience in term of, applying one thing after another, not knowing if, if you've got a job to go back to.

Phil: 17:09

Yeah, I mean it's, it's over 10 years ago now. Also, I'm trying to think back, but I guess the first thing to say was that I really, really loved living in a different country and I had a great time. So, you know, I, I really liked the move to Holland. Netherlands is a great place to live and I had lots of fun there and it was a really nice community that I, that I found myself in. The labs were really nice. The people at work were really nice and, you know, I had a really good good social life in Holland, so I, I think. It's difficult for me to think back and think how, you know, I must have been quite stressed about these applications, but actually my memories of that short period of time are, are very positive in terms of work-life balance.

Sandrine: 17:47

It compensated having, having a good research environment.

Phil: 17:51

Yeah. So I've got very good memories of that time. And you know, I the harder work. I was still a post-doctoral fellow then, and I think that that meant that I was able to focus a bit more on the, on the, on the science than if I'd been, you know, a fellow in an academic position, which I think does come with, with extras on the side that do distract away from the, the core science, I guess.

Sandrine: 18:17

One of the thing I'd like to move to is I'm running a series of workshops on collaboration with research fellows. And, it's the thing that, you have to do as part of your, research life. But, Collaboration are human interaction. Sometime they works and sometime they don't. So what's been your own way of building collaboration, nurturing, collaboration, making them work or letting go of those that don't work. How have you approached it within your cell phone?

Phil: 18:48

So I think there's a lot of quid pro quo that has to go on. Sometimes you have to take, you know, it's a good idea to take on. On small projects from, from collaborators to to try and see if things work. A lot of collaboration is see seeing if things work and quite often things don't come off. And I think it's fine to, if you are interested in it regard almost regardless of what it is, you know, you could try it. See if it works. And if it doesn't, then you move on. And if it does, there's, there's further opportunities to, to go down different paths and apply for funding. But the best collaborations for sure work once both parties get something out of it. So, you know, if, if you both have a shared interest and you can both do things to help each other, that they're definitely the, the best collaborations. And I think that works especially well. So I, I do in vivo. Research. And so a lot of people don't have access to those type of facilities or, or that expertise. And, you know, I wanna do a bit, I wanna understand host pathogen interactions and part of that might involve a technology like drug delivery. If I want to deliver drugs to a specific immune cell type and you know, I don't have expertise in that. And so the, the drug delivery people might want to look in an InVivo model. And I want to look to see if the. Drugs that I'm interested in can be delivered to the right areas. So it's that type of interaction that works really well where there's something that both parties can, are, are super interested in. So often. I, I find that that collaborations are best done, you know, are best set up at conferences where you, you get excited when you, you're speaking to people at posters or after talks and for sure you can't take on everything. But you never know where may, where things may go. And if there's a quick experiment that can be done to see where the thumb something's got legs, then it's probably normally worth trying out.

Sandrine: 20:48

That idea of you can't take everything is an important one because when you are building. Your own research group and you're trying to expand and build opportunities, the strategy that you may have. C well, I need to have lots of collaboration, but in a way you have to deliver on those collaborations. So how have you negotiated that between the excitement where something is interesting and it's like, I could do this. To actually, I can manage this and it's going to work out because you get over excited easily on lots of different stuff. And especially when you start working with PhD student who have to do the work and it doesn't just rely on you to do it. So, what's your own approach of building that dimension.

Phil: 21:34

Yeah, so I don't think I've got. A formalized way of doing it. I must admit that if there's a quick experiment for a potential collaboration, I don't normally get my PhD students to do it because they've got their own projects that I want them to focus on. So I'll normally do it if I have time or when I have time, I'll normally try and do it myself. And I think, you know that. I think if it did work, if there were opportunities then you'd want to get a student in to do it, potentially a master student start off with, and then you could build that into a PhD project if, if that came off. I think it's a, it's a step-wise thing and I think the, the, the main bigger collaborations I have were written into the fellowship plans. So they, they were more established and that links in with the lab much, much better. And so it fits into PhD projects, which, which are in that area, for example. So I think my, my approach would probably to scope it out myself and then see if it fits in with anyone's project. And if not, get another student in to do that.

Sandrine: 22:41

So it's interesting that you still go in the lab and do experiments because a lot of fellows don't feel that they have the capacity and for some fellows, one of the great sadnesses. Basically there is just no time for doing the experiment themselves anymore.

Phil: 22:56

I mean, if you asked my lab, they'd say I was a bit bit of a bit of a stranger to the lab.

Sandrine: 23:01

Okay.

Phil: 23:01

I don't think I'm in, I don't think I'm in the lab as much as I'd, I'd like. I mean, definitely, you know, with, with these independent fellowships, you're expected to be in the lab to some extent. But I do think that's really difficult. And the more students you have, Less time. You, you have to be in the lab yourself, and you actually can't get on your own equipment. That's, that's one of the main problems I have is getting on my own microscopes. which is great which is great because my students are using it yet. But I, I, you know, I, in terms of big regrets not being in the lab, I, I actually have enjoyed the switch away. I didn't think I would. But I don't really. Miss being in the lab that much. I enjoy doing science in a different way. I enjoy hearing from the, the students how things are going and, and seeing their results and you know, interpreting it with them. And I enjoy that. I enjoy that aspect of it. It's quite nice to have someone bring you results rather than doing it

Sandrine: 24:00

you've, so that you don't have had to sweat on, on getting the, the, these data yourself. Yeah.

Phil: 24:05

And I know, you know, I think, I think the nice thing is that I'm trying not to forget how difficult it is to get that data in. I know how hard these experiments are, especially in, in Viva research is, is pretty challenging. And I do enjoy it. I do, I do miss it to some extent, but um, Yeah, trying, I think trying to fit in experiments around everything else that goes with academia is quite difficult, so it's, it's no surprise to me that that fellows and, and new PIs struggle to get in the lab. I think it's half a course and I think that's the way it goes, and I'm willing to accept that.

Sandrine: 24:39

But it's interesting to hear you talk about, in a way, really enjoying research in a different way, because from a lot of conversation with postdocs who say, well, you know, I don't want to let go of the lab worker not realizing that actually the transition to becoming a PI is enjoying research in a different way. And until you've experienced it, you don't know what it's like. So uh, what,

Phil: 25:02

certainly, I was certainly like that as a postdoc. I really loved doing lab work as a postdoc, and I didn't wanna leave a lab.

Sandrine: 25:09

One of the question that I had also on collaboration was this idea of, the balance between collaboration and competition. That can be challenging conversation., I was discussing With a PhD student recently who is part of a research network, and the research network has been set up to really facilitate conversation and this student felt that actually a lot of people were kind of withing information, not really presenting everything because yes, there there is a fine balance between sharing stuff with your competitors and getting them to be your collaborator. So, How do you approach having conversation with people where they could scoop you potentially, or, write a grants bin or some brilliant IDs you've had. So some people feel that they can just share ideas and that they just share. And then if some people want to steal their IDs, so be it while other people are much more protective. How have you dealt with that yourself in, in these early years of being a pi?

Phil: 26:13

Yeah, I, I, I'm not necessarily a nervous person about that type of thing, although, you know, I, I think there have been periods where I've been absolutely convinced that someone's gonna scoop me, absolutely convinced, and then it hasn't happened. So, I've been in a very collaborative field. You know, I think that the zebrafish research community is quite, has been at least over the last 20 years, quite a close community and a very collaborative community. And I think people are quite open often about what they're doing. My opinion is that being open is a very sensible idea to some extent. It is pointless working on the same thing as someone else. It's a waste of time for both people sometimes if you're gonna come to, you know, if you're doing exactly the same experiments towards the same end. I think the difficulty is that Colleagues, collaborators around the world are very smart people. And, and the chances are they're gonna ask the sensible questions. And if there's a finding, then the sensible questions might be the same as other people around the world. And I think that's the difficult thing to deal with is, is understanding whether someone else is gonna follow the same, the same path as you. And that's why I think this, this competition starts. It's because, Sensible questions get asked by sensible people. And then the, the, the kind of follow on questions from what the, the, the gap in knowledge is. So I guess my approach has been to be fairly open. I, I don't really think I've really held anything back, particularly at meetings and things. You know, I think at meetings, Everyone knows in the field who the people who don't present unpublished work at meetings every time and only present stuff that's published. And I'd rather not be that person. I don't think like that's what meetings are for. Scooping in my field is probably less likely to happen than it would be and say a much larger, you know, using much more widely used models like mice because people don't have the expertise in the facilities to do it. But yeah, there's always a danger and sping can come from anywhere, right? I could be scooped on an idea in mice with someone using mice, even though I'm using zebra fish. We could be asking exactly the same research question, but the, the useful thing about using different models is that you might come to different answers. That is often the case differences between. Cell lines and mice and zebrafish are always coming up. So I'm never too worried about being scooped by a different model cuz I feel like the different animal models bring in different challenges and questions and yeah, new questions sometimes arise the different models. So,

Sandrine: 28:59

I suppose, you know, being less worried about it and you know, just see what happened. Instead of freaking out and the

Phil: 29:06

Yeah, I, I mean that, that would be my approach. I do freak out on occasions.

Sandrine: 29:11

mm.

Phil: 29:12

You do get worried if you see someone present and uh, follow in a very similar line. But if, if I had that in a meeting, I'd normally go and speak. Speak to the pi.

Sandrine: 29:21

Yeah. No, that, that sounds like a reasonable approach.

Phil: 29:24

we, if we've seen the similar observation makes sense to talk and see where, where they might be heading next. And, you know, be open about where you are going next. And hopefully it doesn't overlap too much. Now one thing that's, that's been quite good in, in our field has been the increased use of bio archive. So preprints because this, this gives you an idea about. Directions that people are heading. And it also gives you some level of scoop protection as well if you, it allows you to get your research out in the, in the kind of public domain before peer review.

Sandrine: 29:55

So Will, I'll be interesting to kind of hear your expanse in actually building your team, because obviously when you got your VC fellowship, there was an expectation starting to recruit PhD student accessing additional research funding. And in a way People may want to build their team at a different pace. and obviously what the institution may push you to do is, access funding. And you have to find your own pace in term of how many students you recruit, you know, how many you manage to get. So what's been the way that you've built your team to make it, grows at,, at the pace that felt right for you.

Phil: 30:31

Yeah, I, I'd love to say I'd had a really carefully thought out strategy on that, but I don't think, I think it growed, we were a bit more naturally. Than that. So joined my VC fellowship for the two years. It was, it was mainly just me actually, and I, I was able to cut my teeth on su PhD supervision by having it been a second supervisor on a project. And I think that was really useful. So I was approached by a colleague who wanted the second supervisor for project, and that really helped cause they were inexperienced. PhD supervisor and it allowed me during what was the VC fellowship was, was not particularly brilliantly funded in terms of money to, to spend in the lab. So I wasn't able to do a huge amount of research and I couldn't really support kind of unfunded students at that time. So that that was a really useful approach. And then when I got my much better funded Henry Dell Fellowship that allowed me to, to have a research assistant on that fellowship. And I had a choice actually at the time, whether to include a postdoc or a research assistant. And I decided that a research assistant was a good approach because that would give me more technical support and it would also mean that, I could focus a bit more on the fellowship and as the discussion we've, we've just had about being, being important to think about the progression of your, your postdoc towards their, towards their own independence. I think that's a really tricky thing to do as a new fellow actually, because you, you want to develop your own

Sandrine: 32:06

Yeah,

Phil: 32:08

And so I always find it interesting that, that that these early career fellowships. Sometimes allow a postdoc because actually it's quite difficult to develop their own research niche at the same time as develop, developing

Sandrine: 32:19

own. Yeah, no, absolutely. Hmm.

Phil: 32:22

So I was really lucky to, to, to have an excellence research assistant that allowed me to, to get more students into the lab because. As you mentioned it, as a, as a an academic, it's quite difficult to get into the lab and people need that support within the lab. So I was able to get a departmentally funded student at the time. I think these are fewer and fewer. But I, I was lucky to get a PhD student, so within about three or four years, I think at one point I had a lab of seven. Which I thought was a good size actually. I quite enjoyed having a lab of seven, but this included master students which I think are always really, really good to get. It depends on the master's course, but having six months in the lab is a great way to start a new area of research or to consolidate one, you know, you've got a few experiments that need finishing off. I've also been lucky to, because I'm in a medical school, I've had. Opportunities to, to get in slightly longer term undergraduate students. So we have medics, trainee medics. You can come into a lab for nine months which is quite a long time compared to a master student project. So we've had, we've had a few very successful ones. Those come through the lab. And unfortunately, I, Rasmus has now finished, but I, Erasmus was a fantastic way to get really talented students from Europe into the lab. And we've had, we've had a couple of really excellent who I rasmus students in the lab. But yeah, getting PhD students is getting harder. So I, I think, you know, departmental and faculty ones are fewer and fewer. So I've gone more down the line of going for RC. B t p train program students. And that's a, that's a really good way of getting a student who will get support in terms of their training as well from the M C D T P. That's really good.

Sandrine: 34:09

I've been involved in the training element of the Mr. C D TP and B B S R C D T P, but. as a pi, because there are lots of candidates and they can actually choose in some ways, which academic they want to work with. What do you do to get them to want to work with you because it's all very nice you choosing which you want to recruit, but actually, They may have a lot of choice. You know, good student may have four academics who are trying to get them. So what do you do to get the student to see, okay, it's Phil, I want to work with.

Phil: 34:43

Yeah that's a good question. I think getting, getting them to visit is a really good idea. You know, we've got really excellent facilities and labs, lab space here. And I think. They may not have seen a zebrafish, a live zebrafish embryo under a microscope. And I think they're fascinating to look at still. I think, you know, I, I'd rarely, I don't think I've ever seen anyone come in and look down a microscope and say, oh, that's a bit boring. It's just a fish. When you can see the heart beating, you can see the immune cells circular around the zebra fish. If they're not interested in that, then

Sandrine: 35:14

Clearly they're

Phil: 35:15

maybe it's not the PhD for them. So I think, I think zebra fish. I think the imaging aspect of zebrafish is very accessible which means that I think it's attractive to, to, to students. So I normally, yeah, get them to, to, to come and have a look around the lab and speak to the people in the lab as well. I think that's really important to let them have alone time with the PhD students that are already in the lab and, and the, you know, other, other staff that are in the lab to allow them to chapter them without you over their shoulder so they can really find out what's what it's about.

Sandrine: 35:46

What it's like to work in your group. Yeah. what have you felt? Has been the most challenging as part of building your research group. As a new pi, you are kind of pulled in so many different direction and knowing where to put your energy or knowing what to worry about and what to let go of. What have you found difficult?

Phil: 36:06

I think there's been a lot of challenges but most of them have been. Challenging for, for good ways. I think time is the biggest challenge. I, I'm amazed, so I meet with my PhD students every week whene whenever possible, unless I'm traveling and yeah. I can't believe how quickly a week's gone. That's my, that's my biggest challenge is to work out where on earth the last week has gone right now. Why they come and meet my students time, I think is the

Sandrine: 36:34

Time, time. It's interesting you think that cuz I, I've been doing a lot of coaching with research fellows and academics and the one conversation I have with everyone is a challenge with time and the demands of the job.

Phil: 36:49

There's just a, lot of it. I think, you know what, what surprised me, I think, I think the most. What surprised me changing from being a postdoc into, into an academic is the sheer amount of stuff that comes back onto you. So health and safety is, is a big one. You know, you are absolutely responsible as a PI for the health and safety of your, your lab members. And it's not just health and safety, it's a lot of other things, but all of these things take quite a lot of time. And I think that's where the difference, that's why you don't get in the lab as much because time is taken up with, with a lot of paperwork actually, and that that's been a big challenge.

Sandrine: 37:30

In the process of promotion for academics they are all these different categories of, teaching, research and, citizenship, innovation. And as a research fellow you've been protected from teaching. But at the same time, in term of, moving from a fellowship to a lectureship, there is still a need for contributing in one way or another. What have you done to actually protect your time? Because you're pulling so many different direction, but at the same time doing activities that you feel are important in the way that you want to contribute,

Phil: 38:02

yeah, it is a choice. I, I think the the pressures will vary across the university and across departments. So faculty of medicine is not a big teaching faculty in that it does a lot of the teaching is done by NHS staff on the undergraduate course. So I've, you know, I've always been happy to. Teach some lectures in undergraduate, in the undergraduate course and, and the master's course where it links in well, with my, with my research, where the. The course leads and, and the people leading the, the different lecture series want to have input from, from active research. And I think that's a really important thing for Russell Group Universities to have the staff, this research led teaching. And I think it's important for research fellows to be involved with that and to learn how to, you know, to lecture by teaching their own research. So I think that's something that I would very rarely say no to. Is is where, where you're teaching on something that's directly relevant to your, to your research. And this is incredibly important. Coming off a fellowship and becoming a lecturer, you wanna make sure that you are in a department where your area of research is gonna also be taught and a and a, an undergraduate master's level. So yeah, I, I, I've always been happy to, to do a few lectures a year. I think I. Do five or six at the moment. And that seems like a, a good, a reasonable amount to do. And a lot of them are, are kind of related and similar on different master's courses. So yeah, I, I've always liked the teaching aspect and I don't really want to shy away from it too much. I think the difficulty comes if you are asked to, you know lead a course that is nothing to do with your research. And fellows do get asked that on occasions, and I'm in a lucky position where I haven't been asked to do something like that. I think if I was, I would try to push back as much as possible if it was completely unrelated. However, you do have to bear in mind that you know, you will be, you do want to be c put on the core funding when you come off the fellowship and become, become a lecturer, and, and so you have to weigh it up. Sometimes you, you have to take the hits to be more happy further down the line when you eventually leave a fellowship because no one's a fellow forever.

Sandrine: 40:22

What have you done in term of building, the world innovation kind of dimension or the citizenship dimension? Because there are lots of. Committees and you can get involved in lots of things in term of influencing what's happening in your department, in the faculty, across the institution. What have you done to decide, you know, I want to get involved in this? Or have you had a choice? Have you had to take on stuff because you've been told by your head of department, how has this work for you?

Phil: 40:52

Again, I think, I think I've been re reasonably lucky in the past. I think I have been asked to do roles, but the roles make sense, you know, to, to, to be asked to do. So. You know, I'm a early career research, I. Champion in my department. And, and that's it, on, on the early career researcher committee at the faculty, you know, of, of the, of the faculty. And that make, that makes sense because I do research and, you know, I do a lot of that. I think we've tried to, I've tried to set up, things that will help the community as well. So we've tried set up things that help. Fellows in general, there's often gaps in universities and I think sometimes smaller groups like light research fellows can fall through that gap and, for example, not exactly fit the ACP, for example, or maybe not have support in a certain area. So I've tried to get involved where that those gaps have been identified in some way. But yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunities for citizenship. And I think the difficulty comes at the moment with, I think there is a difficulty in getting jobs that are senior you enough for promotion. I think that that is a challenge that, that some fellows have faced as there's not enough jobs to go round and we are just going through a, a faculty restructure and there's gonna be fewer of those jobs. And I think that's an open issue going into the next few years about how. How fellows can get involved enough with their department in terms of citizenship to be taken on as lecturer after their fellowship period. And I think that was a major major challenge.

Sandrine: 42:27

It's interesting because I was having a conversation with a fellow from another institution, and that's something that she was saying is that she had put herself forward. For some of this more senior role you know, administrative citizenship role, whatever you call them. And she was never getting opportunities to do them. So it's like, okay, well if I can't do these roles I'm going to be told that I can't apply for promotion because I've not done a senior role. in a way it means having conversation at faculty level to incorporate that into the promotion criteria of actually what are the opportunities that are available to people, for people to take. Yeah,

Phil: 43:07

Yeah, and I think it's important to, to have the time to discuss this with your line manager. Or your head of department, you know, an annual review, like the S R D S process we have in Sheffield, for example, to identify where, where the gaps are and where, where you think you could help. You know, I think it, if you do it at those meetings, at least it's documented that you've, you've been trying to, to search for these opportunities. I think there are too few opportunities in a way, in those, especially in those senior positions, There's a lot of kind of non formalized balls, which you could take. There's a lot of, you know, you could set up your own group. So we set up a fellow's network a few years ago called the Fellowships and Beyond Network, the Fab Network, to, to create like a peer support group. And that was fairly informal and we weren't really asked to do that. And I think that was a good thing to do at the time. This was a few years ago now. But you know, there may be opportunities that are more informalized that that would allow you to say, well, look, I've done this citizenship and that citizenship, even if it's, you may get more of a struggle rec getting that recognition at faculty level. But I think at departmental level, those type of things are really noticed.

Sandrine: 44:23

And if you think about the role that you want to play yourself in term of the big picture of research culture, what matters to you the most in terms of the contribution you want to make to research culture within your group, your department, the faculty, the institution? what do you feel? Okay. That's really the thing that for me, I want to influence. I want to get people to really talk about

Phil: 44:46

Yeah, I. My, what I'd want to do is to make sure I'd always got time to be supportive. I think that's really important. I think PIs sometimes are not very supportive and there may be many reasons for that. But I think time is a major issue. And actually think there are many PIs who would love to be supportive, but sometimes a postdoc may feel they're not being as supportive as, as they could be. And I think time is a major factor there. So I'd, I'd like to just, yeah, make sure I've got enough time for people to, to do the research that they want to do and feel supported. I think it's very difficult to feel supported, especially in those early stages as a, as a postdoc, because you don't have a permanent position. And I think that's, that's a big problem in science, in, in general. It's made difficult to feel supported if you're not actually gonna be supported to, to go to the next step. And, you know, I think supporting people to do that next step is really important.

Sandrine: 45:41

one of the final question I, I like to ask you, if you reflect on your career so far, If you had to do it all over again, would you do things differently? Would you do exactly December? What maybe would you do differently in term of easing things for yourself, making the journey slightly easier, more enjoyable?

Phil: 46:01

Uh, That's, I mean, I, I'm quite a positive person. I think I've really enjoyed my career. I mean, I wanted to be a vet when I was at school and that, you know, I didn't get into vet school, so I ended up doing science and that's, I wouldn't change that either. How would I make things easier? Yeah, I don't know. I guess the, the one thing that I really definitely didn't want to do as a postdoc, Was to move abroad, which is what I ended up doing because it was the really the only choice I had in terms of fellowships. And I shouldn't have been scared of that move. I guess I was, I was scared of been late twenties and having to move countries at a time point that, you know, it was, could have been really important for my, for my life. You know, from a, a live point, point of view. I guess late twenties is quite an important time. But I shouldn't have been scared of that. You know, I really enjoyed. My time in, in the Netherlands and, and I would happily, you know, think about moving countries again at some point. this is something that I shouldn't have been scared of. It was a, you know, it was a reason to be a big move. And I did actually, I think I said right at the start that during my PhD I had. Opportunities to, to go elsewhere rather than stay in Sheffield. And those opportunities were in the States. And at the time there was a, a certain attitude of, to make it in science, you have to have the BTA card. Do you remember those? That term The Bean Bean Two America card? But I think at the time there was very much this, this feeling that you had to move abroad. And actually, what I found being a fellow in Sheffield, I'm surrounded by fellows that have moved around universities, but not many of them have moved abroad, actually, of the British fellows, a lot of them have stayed in the uk. So I think getting experience elsewhere was something that I didn't wanna do. I was quite happy in Sheffield, and I know I'm back in Sheffield. But actually that, that year abroad, that year and a half abroad really helped my career. It was fantastic to see how, how things were done differently and it gave me a different viewpoint on things and I think that's been incredibly valuable. So yeah, I'd probably tell myself not to be too scared about moving somewhere else.

Sandrine: 48:06

I completely agree with you having done it twice and I've been here, probably longer than I. In my own country. So it's, it's a bit scary thought. My last question, I ask all my my podcast interview is about what gives them joy in research. If you had to say one thing that gives you the most joy in your job, in research, what is it?

Phil: 48:27

I think it's gotta be looking at microscopy time lapse videos.

Sandrine: 48:31

Okay.

Phil: 48:32

Just, just seeing something that, you know, using your eyes to see something in, in a very complex mo You know, I look at host pathogen interactions in vivo and, and just to watch that is incredible. I think watching an immune cell take up a bacteria and watching what it does with it, you know, and so the thing about biology, it's not never binary, rare, rarely is it on or off. And these immune cells can either kill the bacteria or get completely taken over by the bacteria. And to watch that in vivo is incredibly complicated, but it's really satisfying to spot things and, you know, to, to be observant and to, to spot things within these microscopy videos. That, that's what I really like to do. And it doesn't matter if it's my video or my student's video, I still like looking at them and watching the immune interactions because it's these, it's watching stuff that. It gives you the observation that you can then follow up with, you know, more hardcore science if you like. So it's that looking for that initial observation, I guess in, in microscopy that I enjoy.

Sandrine: 49:37

That's really nice. Thank you. Well really appreciate your time. It's been a really a pleasure to to discuss with you. Thank you, Phil.

Phil: 49:44

Thanks. It's.