09- Dr Loice Natukunda- Returning home from a PhD abroad and reshaping researcher development

When Loice Natukunda decided to start a PhD at The University of Sheffield, she probably did not know that a few years down the line, her ambition would be to revolutionise researcher development in Uganda. Well that’s exactly what she is aspiring to do now. She has already started on her mission through her leadership role in developing an early career researcher network (NEMRA) which has been building visibility and momentum over the last 3 years.

Hear Loice’s journey in this podcast.

Loice is a lecturer at the University of Makerere in Kampala (Uganda) specialising in Human Resource Management and Organisational Behaviour.

Loice is always on the look out for contributors to the NEMRA researcher development programme. You can offer to deliver a talk, a masterclass, a workshop!

Get in touch with Loice: https://www.linkedin.com/in/loice-natukunda-a34ab312/

Your can read her doctoral research here: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/13897/

If you want to know more about NEMRA: http://nemraafrica.org/

My name is Dr Sandrine Soubes. I am a coach, trainer and facilitator for the research environment. Do not hesitate to get in touch if you have questions, comments, suggestions, or if you have an idea for an amazing contributor. Reach me at: sandrine@tesselledevelopment.com


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Transcript

Dr Loice Natukunda

***This transcript may not be perfect, but I hope it will help you if audio access is an issue. 

Many thanks

Sandrine Soubes***

Sandrine Soubes: [00:00:57] Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, everyone. You are now on the podcast, Research lives and cultures. And this is me Sandrine Soubes I am your host. And today I have the pleasure to have with me Loice Natukunda who comes from Makerere University in Uganda. Welcome on the show, Loice.

Loice Natukunda: [00:01:18] Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Sandrine.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:01:21] So Loice is a lecturer in human resource management and organizational behavior. And I first met Loice at the University of Sheffield when she was a PhD student in the school of management.  And at the time I was running various workshops at the university and Loice attended some of these workshops.

And then I didn't see Loice for many, many years and thanks to LinkedIn. We got back in touch with each other. Loice was seeking mentors for some researchers who are involved with the NEMRA network, and she will be telling us a little bit more about this.  She was looking for some mentors and I say, okay, well, I'll be quite interested to help in whatever way I can.

So, got involved. And then I started running a few sessions for the NEMRA network over the last, few months. So, it's been really wonderful to have ongoing conversation with Loice.    I think probably since last summer, so Loice it's really, really exciting to have you on the show and to get, to hear your side of the story. So, can you give us a brief overview of your career so far? 

Loice Natukunda: [00:02:37] Thank you Sandrine. And for giving me an opportunity to say my story, everyone has a story.  But probably not everybody gets an opportunity to say theirs. So, thank you so much.   Well I have a bachelor of business administration with management as a major.  It's from Ndejje University Uganda and I also have a postgraduate diploma in human resource management from the Uganda management Institute.

 My MBA is from the Hanze University in Groningen in the Netherlands, and it was mainly focused on  strategic management and administration. And then I also have a PhD again in management from the university of Sheffield where we met years ago.

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:03:29] Why did you decide to do a PhD? Because    having done an MBA in Holland you could have just gone in and get a job straight away. What made you decide to undertake a PhD?

Loice Natukunda: [00:03:43] Well, after my undergraduate studies, I started working with the university as a teaching assistant. And I think I got into a PhD by default because after  getting my masters   the structure in Uganda is that you don't become a lecturer until you have a PhD. So somehow I got into doing a PhD because I was teaching my job was teaching at a university.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:04:13] So doing a PhD abroad is   not something that's really easy   coming from Uganda. So, what was your approach first to decide where to do a PhD? And then how did you   navigate, you know, the, the funding of your PhD? Because obviously doing a PhD abroad is something that's very expensive. So what was your approach in making all of these decisions?

Loice Natukunda: [00:04:36] Okay. So, I, well, I naturally like exploring new places and culture. So, this was one of my underlining reasons for looking for opportunities to study abroad. So, when I was younger, I read a lot of books about, and mostly bibliographies and stories outside Africa. So, I always knew that there was a world out there for me to discover.

But when I was older and thinking about a PhD knew about the importance of spreading out the research network and teaching experience. So apart from a desire to experience the British land and people. I choose to do my PhD in the UK because I really wanted to extend my research network, my academic network, and also teaching experience.

 So, I was looking for exposure, international network building and well teaching a wide cultural environment. I had learned that universities in the UK have staff and students from literally all over the world. So this was impressive for me and so I really wanted to, to have this, but also I have to say that it was hard work to actually achieve the desire.

I spent hours and hours looking for admission and funding. And I had a spreadsheet full of communication. I was making almost every week and I kept ticking off things that are no longer working and those that needed follow up and putting many colors, red and green , purple with different meanings. It was hard work.

 But basically, what I did, I checked university websites or profiles of faculty with similar research interests as mine. And then I just reached out to them via email. I shared my research idea. And inquired if they were happy to supervise me. A good thing is that most of them actually come back to me and they were very supportive.

And I think I got opportunities for admission with over 90% of them, admission is very easy, but then our plans would be checked by unsuccessful applications for scholarship. That was the biggest hurdle.  And for, and yet a PhD in the UK is just not possible for ordinary Ugandan like me to fund themselves.

So, I wouldn't go very far so, but then like the saying goes that never give up. So, I just continued knocking doors until I got a graduate teaching assistantship with The University of Sheffield at the Sheffield management school. So, yeah, that was my, my journey. It was about resilience in looking for, I just wanted this opportunity.

I deeply wanted, deeply desired to study abroad for experience, for exposure, for networking. And then I also did not give up when actually, it was not coming to me easily. I pressed on yeah.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:07:58] What's really interesting in what you're saying is that you, you took a very methodical approach of just pushing, you know, contacting people, pushing on doors and, and seeing   what's there almost not making an assumption, whether people would accept you or not, or whether there would be opportunities and just very systematically seeing  was possible. That's very impressive. And in the end, what was really your experience of the PhD  in Sheffield? 

 Loice Natukunda: [00:08:28] I really had the very nice experience.  Of course there were some challenges, but, I had a nice experience of course, from the beginning, securing the opportunity can be really life-changing.  It comes with a sense of accomplishment because it takes a lot of courage.  And hard work to write a convincing concept to boldly reach out to people and organizations and it also included of course handling very many rejections     but I am aware that some people actually probably get it from the first or second attempt,

Sandrine Soubes: [00:09:05] Loice. this thing that you said about rejection, is a really important one because many people could have thought, well, you know, these people, you know, there is no funding or, I'm being rejected. People are not interested in my ideas and this idea of resilience to actually create these opportunities.

 What was the sort of inner motivation or the, maybe the support also that you may have had, through your friends, family, or, or anyone that sort of kept you going through that process of creating this opportunity?

 Loice Natukunda: [00:09:38] Well, I think usually the rejection is not in one sentence or in a very bad way. Like, no, we don't like you, your concept or anything like that. It comes with a lot of feedback and explanation. On why    a funder is not able to provide you with a scholarship. And even if, sometimes it just says, Oh, it was a nice proposal, but because of many applications, we couldn't take you on blah, blah, blah.

When you get back to the people have been supporting you to develop the concept, they can sometimes speak out the issues behind that and what actually helped me to push it needs to reflect on those unsuccessful attempts, and then try to make myself, my next application better so I can maximize the chances.

But also, I was encouraged by    some of the people I was working with on the other side, the UK    faculty that I would contact about my research.  They would encourage me to remember that actually these scholarships are very competitive, and they get very many applications.

So I didn't need to take it really personal about my application. It's just that they are just too many and they, they find I cannot take them more on.  Yeah. So, I think that was it learning from trying to make the application better.    But also remembering that, however, good. The application may be there might be thousands of good applications and the need to keep knocking doors. Yeah.

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:11:22] What was the best part of doing a PhD in the UK for you? Why? Because, I mean, again, the university where you, where the university of Sheffield has tons and tons of opportunities for PhD researchers  to learn,  to network and so on. But the timeframe of a PhD is limited and making the most of all these opportunities is sometimes quite challenging.

So in, in your case, what were really the, the highlights and the key things that you were able to do during your period as, as a PhD student,

Loice Natukunda: [00:11:56] Okay. I'm not really sure about other cities in the UK. I only visited a few and didn't live there, but   living in Sheffield, I really found it a very.  A super international students, friendly city, really, as an international student, you would not get lost in the city. The community was very supportive and well, a PhD may come with a lot of stress and you do not want to live in a place where the community is not supportive.

So I think living in Sheffield was very good. Also the fact that it was very close to very nice countryside, places like the peak district, where you could be able to go and  release the stress of being a PhD student. And also discover the history of the country.

 So I, I really loved that experience but within the university I think, undertaking a PhD, in the UK, it's very interesting, especially in the way the doctoral development training program is structured. So the way that the program is structured and designed is in a, in such a way as to develop you as an independent researcher.

So apart from the support that we used to get to enhance our intellectual ability to do the research, produce and defend our thesis at the end, we were also given numerous training opportunities. So, we could develop our soft skills and abilities.  To be able to manage research well and engage in way that society.

So, this is how I got to meet you Sandrine. And even though you are not from    our school, but the university offered these university-wide training opportunities for becoming better researchers, but also opportunities from other universities and conferences. So, I found the doctoral training program in the UK, very very helpful, very holistic in a manner.

So after defending my thesis, I could say, okay, I've gained that skill, that skill, that skill, besides doing research and writing the thesis.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:14:22] So if you're reflecting on all the opportunities that you had as a PhD student, What do you think was the most significant in term of the way that you see your role now as an academic in Uganda? What do you think got you to think about your role as an academic for what you wanted to take back to your country in shaping you, as a professional and as an academic who felt that you could contribute building research capacity  in your country? .

audio_only_16779266_NEMRA: [00:14:52] Okay. What really created the way of thinking for me, were   the discussions that we had with the. The fellow PhD students, but also academics. So beside him outside the normal PhD training, we had these reflections and then sharing experiences made me, I think, because then would realize and appreciate that we are different and we are coming from different backgrounds.

And we have different ambitions. So, it accelerated a question of, okay, I am a human being and the expectations from society and all that, but what's so special about me.  What are some of the abilities that I have? What am I, my motivation, what are the things that excite me? And where are the opportunities?

Who can I work with.  I reflected, deeply about the uniqueness of me and what I can contribute after appreciating that? Actually, even though we are many, we are also individual personalities and we don't have to be exactly the same.

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:16:09] Yeah. I like this idea because often. It can feel quite overwhelming because when you think about the number of PhD graduates, say, well, what's so different about me. You know, everybody's got a PhD these days, probably not everybody, having a sense of power. That's often something that I talk about.

And. Almost not undermining our competencies   and our power in the way we can contribute positively in the work context. So that that's an important part. So what were the challenges as part of doing a PhD abroad, because, you know, you were very, very far from home and in a country where you had not lived before and at the same time, trying to make the most of the experience, and you had worked so hard in getting yourself to start a PhD.

So, lots of learning and lots of new, exciting things, but at the same time, it's not an easy journey. So what were for you, the challenges that you had and what did you do to move beyond these challenges, to overcome them and navigate your career in the best way that you could at the time.

Loice Natukunda: [00:17:22] Hmm. I think top on my list is winter, dark and cold, was really, really difficult.

 I had been in the Netherlands, but for one year so that was the most difficult I never got used to winter. I never, I didn't get used to it.  But, but also adopting to a new environment where it was really a challenge.

So for example, even though Uganda is an English speaking country, I just couldn't understand the accent of some people in Sheffield. And I would hear people speak and I was wondering are they really, really speaking English.  It was hard.  

Sandrine Soubes: [00:18:05] I can relate to that Loice.   I remember in the university, there was a store for people to collect stuff for the laboratory. And two of the men who were running the store had very, very strong Yorkshire accent. And I would never pick the phone in the lab when I knew they may be calling because I could not understand them. And I was always feeling very embarrassed about, not understanding what they were saying. So completely understand you.

  audio_only_16779266_NEMRA: [00:18:32] When it was the physical interaction, you would try to see the body language and understand what they are saying. But on the phone no, it was really hard. I had a friend from Nigeria who encouraged me to watch TV so that I can get used to the accent. And I'm usually not a TV person, but this time I, I decided to watch news and things like that, to be able to get used to the accent.  Well that might sound like    minor challenge, but it actually was working on my psychology as thinking if I cannot understand what we perceive saying how we like really manage, but that didn't take long and then quickly got used to the accent.

But the other thing the intellectual challenge is that I was not used to the whole idea of being critical in research and teaching. So coming from a culture with a huge power distance, I was, I thought that you, you don't go, you actually make sure that you go very small questioning what those who are more powerful than you say.

So if a teacher say something or lecturer, I say something or an author of an article or a textbook then you have to tread carefully. If you're to try to think deep about their claims and maybe you to be respectful, you take them on face value. So my supervisor who was British but also familiar with this situation, she told me that my students, especially British students will appear to be very critical.

What I do am saying. And that I should not take this personally, which was very good advice.  But then I also had to make sure that I was not merely descriptive in my research. And then that took a lot of learning. And of course, even after four years of, from after my PhD, I am still learning. And yeah, so I had to give special attention to developing my critical analysis skills.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:20:47] Can I ask you Loice, because that's a really important element. What advice would you give   to academics in the UK or, other Western universities when, because that's something that I've heard many times when people come from other countries where the relationship with authority with, established academic is very different and learning to become critical as, as a researcher is part of what you're learning to do.

And, you know, researchers who are just starting their PhD coming from overseas, might find that really challenging. So what advice would you give on both sides to academics who are recruiting students from overseas who come from cultures where criticality isn't established or expected as it is in the West, but also to PhD candidates coming from overseas who are encountering or are given permission to become critical. How do we navigate that space of inviting people towards criticality and learning to become, critical ourselves.

audio_only_16779266_NEMRA: [00:21:56] I think first for the academics being aware of the issue is the first step.  So you do not take it for granted, but actually people look at things the same way.  So, I think awareness is, is a very good thing. Like my professor was really aware. She had done a lot of work in Brazil and some Portuguese speaking countries inAfrica, Mozambique.

Loice Natukunda: [00:22:22] So she was really aware of this issue and she, she quickly oriented me about it and she prepared me. So whenever we went into this supervisory meetings, she would cause I was expecting that when I go there, they want our meeting.  She, and, and her co-supervisor would tell me what to do. And the, you know, like dictate on the flow of my proposal and research.

But then she told me that it's actually your study and we know you have the potential to do it. So, we went what you want and what you think to be what we move forward, not what we think or our ideas. And it's, it's your opportunity. So, she took time to explain this to me, even though if I think if she was dealing with a British student, she would not bother to do it because they already know this.

So, awareness   for the academics is key because if someone has worked in Europe alone and probably hasn't been exposed to other cultures, they might take it for granted and think that everybody thinks the same. But I think it's important to be aware of that and reassure the student.

So, some, sometimes I would feel like, Oh, I'm stepping on the toes of my supervisors. And she would say, no, actually that's what we like. We will need to tell us, you're the one who is familiar with the African context and you are the expert. So, tell us that, that was really encouraging. And I think for the international students, there's a lot of help.

 There's a lot of published work in form of textbooks and general articles that talk about being critical and how to be critical. And I think universities also offer workshops and seminars.  So, it doesn't come that easily. It takes a deliberate effort to actually learn and,unlearn some things about being critical.

So it's important to spare time and look for these opportunities and utilize them in the doctoral training program, but also with colleagues or the books in the library and maybe general articles as well. Yeah.

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:24:46] So, is it something that you are now trying to do with your own students as part of your teaching? So that this level of criticality is just part of the normal curriculum in the way that teaching is done in Uganda.  

Loice Natukunda: [00:25:00] When I came back, it was one of the things that I thought I should promote. I actually worked with two of my accountability group members from the University of Sheffield to write a little handbook in very simplistic terms for the Ugandan     community, like the steps of why it is important how to read critically, how to write critically and the available resources that are there for self-training.

 So we, we did a little handbook about this.  Issue because I struggled a lot with it, it's very, very challenging. So and I try to encourage my students about it, the ones I supervise for research and the ones that  I teach  to encourage them to appreciate it's a benefit.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:25:50] So Loice having now gone back to Uganda, what is really your career ambition now that you're back home and what is it like to go back? Because, there will be some of your academic colleagues in your department and institution who didn't do a PhD overseas, and may create certain assumption on you having done a PhD abroad. And, as a PhD graduate, full of enthusiasm and, motivation and energy to create change in your own institution. Making things happen then when you're back can be perceived very differently. So what has it been like going back and what do you want to achieve over the next few years   in working back in Uganda, 

Loice Natukunda: [00:26:42] So earlier in the interview you mentioned something and although you retracted it, you say now almost everyone has a PhD. So,  in Uganda, I think studying abroad has been happening years and years and years. So, they are very many people who have done their PhDs or masters abroad. And when you asked about how my colleagues see me on my return, it's    I don't know.

I haven't experienced it as something extremely special because they they've been used to people doing post-graduate studies abroad. And so I, I didn't find it like something very unique or too special, but well actually my ambition is about research. So, I really want to make contribution to the researcher development.

And research capacity, building approaches and frameworks. And not only in Uganda, but the entire continent of Africa, because I think there's a lot of room for improvement on how we teach and supervise and examine research. I think we could    re revise for the better, how we develop researchers and related to this is research membership as well for the other career researchers in order for them to make significant contributions, not only in the higher institutions of learning, but in society generally.

So we, we recently had a dialogue about a research agenda for a community of early career researchers in Uganda and someone an official, a top official from the ministry of education. She clearly stated, that the only way they can make an implement ideal policies is if researchers do finish them with relevant, relevant quality research output.

And of course, this is understood by all stakeholders. And we must develop researchers who can deliver on the assignment.  If we are to really run a country well. So that's my ambition. I really want to see transformation and change in how we develop researchers and how we build capacity for research in our country and continent.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:29:14] one of the initiatives that you've been involved in is the NEMRA network. Could you tell us a little bit of how it got started and how you started being involved  in this network?

Loice Natukunda: [00:29:27] Okay, so   NEMRA is   the network for education and multidisciplinary research Africa.  It's an entire university inter-institutional network for postgraduate research students, academics, and generally others interested in research in Africa.  So, if you think about it, researchers and institutions in Uganda, And Africa, generally, they have more intellectual resources than we probably realize, and these resources aren't tapped. So ,we think that through inter- institutional networking we can through synergy worked once a dream of a brilliant network of stakeholders that actually advance excellent research for society well-being. And so, we are engaged in a lot of capacity building activities. We also do joint research projects as the entire university teams. And so, although the network is based in Uganda, we have participation from across the globe.

Really?   And of course, we've been very privileged to have you participate by offering a training, but also mentoring some of the NEMRA ladies. So, we do appreciate your involvement.  I've been involved in this network as a managing director for the last two and a half years since its inception in 2018.

So, I am in the evening time of my leadership there, and it was a sort of an unchartered territory for me, really. I have made a lot of mistakes. Of course, I learned from them and it's a learning experience, but also the doctoral training   that we had on research leadership.at The University of Sheffield, of course, they contributed to my ability to bore the steps out to this challenge. And I still constantly refer to my notes from the events that we had that they think I had program used to organize like this springboard for women.  I think you still remember the grad school retreat that we had towards the end of our PhD.

So these experiences helped me to boldly get into the leadership of this entire university network  which I built. 

Sandrine Soubes: [00:32:05] Can I ask you Loice. So, I mean, from attending courses where we talked about leadership, we mostly have conversations about it, to now being in a position through your work for NEMRA, to actually, making things happen. And how do you think that, over the last two and a half years of being involved in NEMRA your leadership has changed and, what have you learned about your own leadership as a higher education professional? Where is your leadership at right now, based on these real-life experiences?

audio_only_16779266_NEMRA: [00:32:39] It's one thing to actually get into leadership training and mentorship programs, but it's another to actually implement the leadership. It's when you get the responsibility, then that's where the rubber meets the road, like they mentioned. So, I'm at the point of actually analyzing the experiences that I've had about the accomplishments of the network, but also the failures, what, not as a, in a bad way, but the un-achieved goals or the mistakes that we have had.

So, I'm at a point of, like I mentioned in September this year, it will be three years, of this journey. So, I'm doing a lot of reflection and I think it will help me in my next journey   

Loice Natukunda: [00:33:36] in my next leadership or management assignment

that I may get, or if I'm to continue with NEMRA.   At this point, it is still more of a reflective period,

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:33:49] Can I push you a little bit more on that what do you think you've really learned about yourself through getting the NEMRA. To be really visible and out there. And the fact that, I got involved with NEMRA and, other people got involved, in providing support for activities. What do you think that you learned about yourself in knowing what you can make happen for your research community?

Loice Natukunda: [00:34:15] Okay. Maybe I haven't learned, but I've confirmed that I'm actually very task-oriented. I tend to, to be really, really pushy. We have to achieve the task. I'm very task-oriented and I'm learning how to balance between the task orientation and the people orientation. So how to like team work and things like that.

So, I usually get more concerned. Have we achieved rather than are we actually working together?  What's the best way of achieving a proper balance.  Yeah, so I think that's where I am now about myself learning about myself. if we get on the Belbin team roles, I am really, really more overall complete finisher of things. I want things finished.    I get a bit uncomfortable with anything pending which I think sometimes makes me compromise on things to do with teamwork and  working with other people. 

Sandrine Soubes: [00:35:27] If you're thinking about the big picture of research in Uganda, what do you think needs to happen to shift the research culture, to enable academics, to work better together, to create research opportunities? When, you know, in reality, there is very little funding option and through the work that you've done in NEMRA, it's very much the bringing people together, but then going from bringing people together to really change the culture and really change the way people are able to undertake research what is going to need to happen or what, what would you dream that that happened for really,  proper impactful change for research in Uganda and  in beyond in Africa as well.

Loice Natukunda: [00:36:15] okay, Sandrine.  The question about research culture in Uganda and Africa is a very complex one. I don't think I have a clear answer to this question in my head right now, but it is something I'm still pondering about. So recently the government of Uganda extended funding to Makerere university where faculty are conducting local funded projects in teams.

So maybe this is something that we need to evaluate to see what kind of challenges the grant scheme is addressing in terms of the research culture and how working together has been enhanced.  But definitely this is a, a big research question. Maybe somebody should do a project about it. Yeah.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:37:03] Absolutely. One question that I have is about the training that people have when they are PhD students in the UK or Europe or the US coming from Africa or,  countries from the global South. I'm asking that because. When a few months before I left the university of Sheffield, I had a conversation with a PhD student from chemistry from Nigeria.

And he was interested in setting up a network for PhD students from Africa. And I convinced him to go beyond Africa and to create a network for researchers from the global South. And as part of the conversations that, that we were starting to have was the issue of how when you're thinking about the training of PhD students, , in a lot of the doctoral training partnership.

And so on, the training is very much done from the point of view of we're training researchers within a Western context. And in a way, for me, when I started having these conversations with, with this group, I almost felt embarrassed that I had not really taken into consideration the leadership needs of researchers from the global South in term of it's all very nice to become very good researchers.

But then when people go back home, the context in which they have to undertake research is totally different from what they have  in the UK and in a way, getting people ready to what people may call , accelerated leadership so that when they go back home, they've really been thinking about what it means to be a research leader and how to build research capacity.

Because at the moment I feel that we train a lot of PhDs and met. Maybe they're not prepared enough, or maybe they are, I don't know. But in a way, what do you think is maybe the missing link or something that you feel that all PhD students doing a PhD,  in the West, really need to experience, and maybe you had these expenses yourself in Sheffield, but  when you're working with colleagues who have done PhDs abroad, what do you think they really need to be able to be trained in or,  what they need to have experienced to be able to be really of use when they go back home?

Loice Natukunda: [00:39:21] This is a very, very good question. Very important question. I think first of all, the training is really thorough.  But I think the key to being effective when we get back home is creating collaborative activities between the institution in the UK and that of the doctoral student   back home, if that kind of networking is not there.

So for example, the department.  Could get in touch with the department where the doctoral student is coming from, and then they see what they can do together   and probably asks them some input in the student's training. So, they work together. And so those trained abroad, they're usually exposed to lots of ideas for improving their home country, but they rarely get support to implement those ideas when they return and I'm not only talking about financial support, but someone has been doing a PhD in the UK and they haven't done anything with their head of department. And when they return, they start to make suggestions about things. And the head of department is not really understanding what they are saying.

So, I think during the training, if the institutions in the UK can find collaborative opportunities with institutions of the students back home so that they keep that linkage open and find ways of working together.  Then their PhD graduates won't be disappointed when they get back, because in most cases, disappointment is what happens and then they conform FFE to the status quo. And then in the end, the impact is really minimal, or they have to work really, really hard to convince their institutions back home, to take up all that all the potential that they can actually do.   I'm sure there are so many people who are trained and trained abroad, but the environment is not conducive for them to actually implement all the potential that they have. They have to work very hard to convince people or to actually implement what they would like to do, which I think if there was a support from the institution where you know, the training should not be solely by the UK institution   that period could be linked. The activities in the period could continue at a building with what's happening in the institution back home.  That's what I can think of at, at the moment. Otherwise, the training is usually thorough. 

Sandrine Soubes: [00:42:11] It's basically using a collaborative approach throughout. It's like, student coming from, let's say Makerere university, where there is an ongoing conversation between academics from that department and the academic hosts in the UK to be able to, embed, whatever research is taking place in the context within Makerere university or whatever other university. It feels that people just are really separate from their African institution once they are in the UK or in other universities where you don't have a link for several years with your own institution and then, you go back and it's yeah, I can see the frustration. I have a background in biological research and I think maybe for people from experimental sciences, people may go and work on projects, of interest to that academic, but, is completely unrelated to any type of research that is possible, you know, back in their own country. And then, what are their projects when they go back home? What, what is the type of work that can actually be done and, and of use the way projects are designed, having a consideration of what type of project will be able to be something that the PhD graduate then can kind of carry on as their own research portfolio once they go back home. I don't think that we really think about that so much. And probably that's something that needs to be discussed more with PhD supervisors in the UK    can I ask you what has been the most challenging for you moving back home and trying to establish your next step in your career?

 Loice Natukunda: [00:43:51] So when I was doing my PhD, I came back to Uganda very frequently. And I also did my field work in Uganda. So culturally, I was not detached and bearing in mind that I have been, I was born and raised here. So, it was not difficult to get back in society.  But within my career, I came back with a lot of ideas, just like what we've been talking about communicating these ideas and mobilizing people to rally behind them is not a straightforward endeavour. I think so far, this is my biggest challenge.  Looking at things and ideas, and you imagine that they could make our, our work easier and more effective, but then communicating these and creating a buy-in from others is what is really challenging. Yeah.

 Sandrine Soubes: [00:44:49] What would, the thing you would tell to your young self. If you were going back in time, what would be   the words of wisdom, having experienced all of this and, what would you tell yourself to ease your path up until now?

Loice Natukunda: [00:45:07] If I became my young self again, I think I would tell myself that failure is not the end of the world and it's not a horrible, horrible fail.  When I look back at my failures, the things that I attempted, some of them were deeply disappointing, but then now I realize that actually, those are the moments that have made me who I am now. 

But in the moment, I was thinking that the world has come to an end. I will never amount to the kind of person I've dreamed to be.  I am unlucky all those negative thoughts that are not actually very true, so, failure is not the end of the world.  

It's connection. It's actually an opportunity to be shaped into, a person and a person who I'm meant to be. And it shapes me to accomplish the purpose, so I would be more encouraged if I were younger and, some of those life dreams and things, I would encourage myself and say, okay, let's see what's in this, even though it doesn't look really nice.

Sandrine Soubes: [00:46:21] Thank you, Loice. So to round off our discussion  I like to ask you, if you were talking to a young woman in Uganda or young woman  in Africa, thinking about undertaking, starting,  a PhD  journey, and  what would you tell to this young woman in term of making the most of a PhD journey and maybe how she may need to consider her role and her responsibility to build research capacity when she goes back to her country. And I'm particularly talking, visualizing, a young woman in an African country where, maybe the expectations placed on her are maybe not the expectation that she wants to have placed on. And the desire and the dreams, professional dreams, professional ambition, sometimes, the expectation that others have of us are not necessarily what our dreams are. So ,what would you say to this young woman and maybe some of these young women are now your students, what would be your best five tips or best five words of wisdom 

Loice Natukunda: [00:47:36]   My sister keeps saying that your attitude is your altitude. So, if you think high, you are likely to actually go that high. So, everybody has potential to actually achieve more than they are thinking, so keep on doing. If they've gotten the opportunities and maybe they're preparing to go, I would tell them, I'm do not stay in your room or around just your university, but explore the communities from your home country, it's usually an opportunity. Maximize this time to understand the community, explore. In the UK, there's a program called host where some families take on international students for a weekend or a whole week to teach them about the British culture.  When you're doing a PhD, you think, Oh, I must maximize every moment to progress on my chapter, things like that.

But actually, if you take on a, something like that, like going for a host program and go to a British family to learn about culture or even explore the upcountry, the countryside, , it's very important. And then that could also advise them to maximize the opportunities that are offered during the doctor development training programs and also conferences. These are not easy to get by if you come from Uganda, like I do, it's not very easy to find. So it's important that you grab all the opportunities, but, there in the doctoral training program and they keep the information very well for reference for the future. I think that the third thing that I would tell them is, for them to keep in touch with the, institutions and community back home, and consider collaborative activities. We've mentioned this it's quite key because it helps when you return back for orientation back into the community and the institution, but also to continue progressing as part of that faculty. And then, when it gets really tough in the middle of your PhD, just remember that it is still possible.

You can look at those who have gone before you and made it, and, and remember that the road was as hard as, as theirs. So, keep, keep the focus. Yeah, I think that's what I would encourage the PhD woman from Uganda or Africa, exploring the opportunity in the UK. 

Sandrine Soubes: [00:50:24] Thank you, Loice. Well, these are certainly, you know, very wise words and I think that you are very much an inspiration for many of your students and maybe many of the young women in Uganda and in Africa about, being very daring  in your career. It's been a great pleasure interviewing you for this podcast Loice.

And I'm sure that we will have many other opportunities to work together and to have conversations.

Loice Natukunda: [00:50:54] Thank you, Sandra. And for having me.